MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[conv90]

Can be this New Range with the new UI a good indicator of actual Nominal Full Pack? It's visible only when charging as limit when the cursor is at 100%

488 km is what I see in SMT at Full Rated Range and Full Ideal Range:

( days ago I was with some decimal more NFP -77,6 Vs 77,4 and FRR was around 490 and 490 km was the same in the car Screen when charging)

And we all know that the slide in THE APP is always a bit OFF:

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Can be this New Range with the new UI a good indicator of actual Nominal Full Pack? It's visible only when charging as limit when the cursor is at 100%
View attachment 755346
488 km is what I see in SMT at Full Rated Range and Full Ideal Range:
View attachment 755348
( days ago I was with some decimal more NFP -77,6 Vs 77,4 and FRR was around 490 and 490 km was the same in the car Screen when charging)

And we all know that the slide in THE APP is always a bit OFF:
View attachment 755352

If the simultaneous app value is NOT the same as that value, and the value in the car is not changing all over the place, those would be good signs for this being a useful value.

 

[Steen2000]

It might and probably have been raised before in this long thread. In another forum people ask if there may be difference in degradation of the 82 kwh panasonic e3ld and the LG 78 (?) Kwh e5 that came before/after?
So e3ld is the better battery as I understand on range, charging speed
But which will withstand aging and mileage the best ?

Also how is degradation on this LFP battery for standard range that is to be charged to 100%?

 

[AlexUA]

It might and probably have been raised before in this long thread. In another forum people ask if there may be difference in degradation of the 82 kwh panasonic e3ld and the LG 78 (?) Kwh e5 that came before/after?
So e3ld is the better battery as I understand on range, charging speed
But which will withstand aging and mileage the best ?

Also how is degradation on this LFP battery for standard range that is to be charged to 100%?

LFP needs to be charged to 100% at least once a week. they have different chem, and will degrade if NOT to do that.
Panasonic is Nickel basic chem, more density, more power delivered instantly,more C-rate at charging, bit better at low temps.

 

[AAKEE]

LFP needs to be charged to 100% at least once a week. they have different chem, and will degrade if NOT to do that.
Panasonic is Nickel basic chem, more density, more power delivered instantly,more C-rate at charging, bit better at low temps.

Do we for sure know that LFP degrades more if not charged to 100%?
While I haven’t specifically studied LFP they often is handled in research reports I have read. The very sure fact for earlier LFP’s, that is LFPs that was tested the latest years(2017-2021) show the same behaviour as NCA and NMC, thats more calendar aging with increasing SOC, and also a “step” around 60-65% where the calendar aging increases.

I have only seen one report claiming that high SOC is best, and they at least seem to have made some mistakes in the research.
They only tested batteries at 5 points, with three quite close SOC lewels and at three temperature points. Temperature was 40, 50 and 60 C degrees which is very high and not even one point is representative for in car use. From this they did use the square of time, square of temp and square of SOC to draw a 3D map from 0 to 100% SOC and 0 to 60C and 0 to 100 years.
I expect their conclusions to fall out of the sky even if it actually will be that 100% SOC is the best for modern LFP from other sources.

My expectation is that the Tesla + LFP recommendation is like this:
- LFP has a very flat voltage curve which makes it hard to estimate the SOC from Voltage. The BMS knows the stored capacity from a full charge, and furing drives it estimates the SOC from the used capacity( - kWh). When parked/at sleep it can estimate the SOC by measuring the voltage but thats only really valid if the car really sleeps. If the Sentry is on the voltage will not be correct. After a longer time with no sleep( ex. sentry mode always on) the BMS might loose track of the capacity of the battery and maybe even the exact SOC. This could cause one to get stranded before reaching a destination if the SOC is overestimated.
A full charge each week reset the BMS to know the SOC.

LFP is not sensitive at all to large cycles, they can do 100% to 0% without any noticable cyclic aging, so for that reason 100% is not an issue.
I expect LFP to still degrade more or less as NCA( long range batteries), maybe less if the technology has improved but I do not expect LFP to have the least calendar aging / degradation at 100%. One can hope that they will though.
After next summer we might have good data, we need time + hot environment to take a bite from the batteries.

 

[Steen2000]

It might and probably have been raised before in this long thread. In another forum people ask if there may be difference in degradation of the 82 kwh panasonic e3ld and the LG 78 (?) Kwh e5 that came before/after?
So e3ld is the better battery as I understand on range, charging speed
But which will withstand aging and mileage the best ?

So I guess I poluted my own question with the additional question on LFP
Does anyone have insight in how the degradation stats compare between the e3ld and the LG battery that is also used in M3 Long Range (e5..something) ??
I am the happy owner of the 82 kwh e3ld Panasonic and both Eivissa and AKKEE explained me it is the "unicorn of 2021 LR battery". So I am very happy about that. But based on some questions I read I wonder if there can be some difference in degradation between Panasonic and LG or if it will be the same if basically same technology ? Any insights on this? Long range batteries !

 

[eivissa]

So I guess I poluted my own question with the additional question on LFP
Does anyone have insight in how the degradation stats compare between the e3ld and the LG battery that is also used in M3 Long Range (e5..something) ??
I am the happy owner of the 82 kwh e3ld Panasonic and both Eivissa and AKKEE explained me it is the "unicorn of 2021 LR battery". So I am very happy about that. But based on some questions I read I wonder if there can be some difference in degradation between Panasonic and LG or if it will be the same if basically same technology ? Any insights on this? Long range batteries !

We can take guesses based on cell chemistry, but it is still uncertain if the LG 5L has NMC or NCMA. There is also hardly any data, since these new LR E5LD are only out on the market since two months.

 

[AlexUA]

Thanks, appreciated. @eivissa confirmed the part number with a colleague too - and added it to his post on the German forum

ASY,HVBAT,LFP60,RWD,1PH,M3 1 Wade Seal 1467057-00-B and 6 Bolts 1119905-00-A are required on every HV Battery Pack installation

1666968-00-C

As we already in batterys here is Tesla LFP BTF1 code CATL battery for US spec vehicle 60kwh according to Tesla, and bit different to @eivissa (FYI)photo of its 62...

A full charge each week reset the BMS to know the SOC.

You right must be BMS "issue" to detect SOC, because the voltage is flat.
So 100% is needed ))

 

[Steen2000]

We can take guesses based on cell chemistry, but it is still uncertain if the LG 5L has NMC or NCMA. There is also hardly any data, since these new LR E5LD are only out on the market since two months.

NMC vs NCMA ? What all else equal difference will it do to a battery being the one or the other?
And what is the e3ld of the two?

 

[eivissa]

Can be this New Range with the new UI a good indicator of actual Nominal Full Pack? It's visible only when charging as limit when the cursor is at 100%
View attachment 755346
488 km is what I see in SMT at Full Rated Range and Full Ideal Range:
View attachment 755348
( days ago I was with some decimal more NFP -77,6 Vs 77,4 and FRR was around 490 and 490 km was the same in the car Screen when charging)

And we all know that the slide in THE APP is always a bit OFF:
View attachment 755352

My app is not as inaccurate, but your theory checks out in my M3P as well

 

[AAKEE]

NMC vs NCMA ? What all else equal difference will it do to a battery being the one or the other?
And what is the e3ld of the two?

Panasonic is NCA. (82kWh)

LG is NMC. The cell used is LG INR M50( or maybe M50-T?), and maybe some chsnge in the chemistry but I serioulsy doubt theres a big difference if any.
LG(and some other as well use the prefix INR for NMC).

There has been information about LG us developing a NMCA which should have a higher energy density than NMC, and lower part of cobalt.
So far, my tip would be that its an old cell, as the energy content in the packs is in pair with or slightly less than the known M50 holds in tests.
A new battery with better energy per volume ratio( = per each cell or per 4416 of them in a M3 LR), should reach a higher capacity in the pack.
The 74.5kWh LG pack used the M48 cells and the 77.8 use the M50 cells(this is stated by Tesla in Teslas certification papers). The numbers ad up quite close with these cells.
SPEC’s:
M48(in 74.5 kWh pack) 17Wh x 4426= 75.0kWh.
M50(in 77.8 kWh pack) 18.2Wh = 80.3kWh)

Real measured capacity:
LG M50 test

17.86wh x 4416= 78.8kWh capacity in a pack.

For the basic question, so we do not loose it again:
In general, seen in tests where panasonic NCA has bern tested togheter with NMC( not necessarily LG Chem NMC), NCA is the best in research when it comes to calendar aging. NMC degrade faster(not by much but faster), specially when the ambient temps is high and SOC is high at the same time.

NMC is better at withstanding big cycles so they probably degrades slower if used with big cycles.

In the end the difference probably is not that big and it will be the usage that set the factors that determin which battery that is the best. Low mileage and left at high SOC in a hot environment: NCA should be slightly better.
If left with low SOC during nights but big cycles like 90 or 100% to 10%, the NMC might have an advantage.
I would be upset if I did get the NMC, or NCA.
As we do not know the exact spec and/or have seen any test of these cells against each other its hard to know exactly. All info from above is in general or Panasonic NCA(in some cases Tesla Model S NCA) against NMC in general.
I have sone Panasonic cells on order for some home tests, and the rumor in battery nerd forums is that these indeed is the same as Tesla cells.

 

[conv90]

My app is not as inaccurate, but your theory checks out in my M3P as well

View attachment 755564View attachment 755563

I think that the new range on the screen (it appears only during charge) is not slavishly the value in SMT at FULL RATED range but a calculation of Nominal full pack/158,7 Wh/km (for a Performance) . In my case is 77,4/158,6 = 488.
SMT (instead ) never shows a Full rated range firmly fixed/linked to NFP.
I had NFP stone solid at 77,6 for several days in the past week and the Full rated range was bounging on SMT from 487 to 493 . During The charge and the value on the screen was instead always 489-490.

The Scroll on app depends too much on temp and it changes very much depending on the moment (expecially past the last App update on Android).

 

[Zoomit]

I would be upset if I did get the NMC, or NCA.

@AAKEE Thank you for your contributions here. For posterity, I expect you meant to say:

"I would not be upset if I did get the NMC, or NCA."

 

[AAKEE]

@AAKEE Thank you for your contributions here. For posterity, I expect you meant to say:

"I would not be upset if I did get the NMC, or NCA."

Oooooops! I didnt see that

I did write the post with my iPhone and it reverted to autocorrect recently. Maybe that was the problem. Too late to edit now…

And yes, thats correct: I would’nt be upset, would not be upset.

 

[AAKEE]

I think that the new range on the screen (it appears only during charge) is not slavishly the value in SMT at FULL RATED range but a calculation of Nominal full pack/158,7 Wh/km (for a Performance) . In my case is 77,4/158,6 = 488.
SMT (instead ) never shows a Full rated range firmly fixed/linked to NFP.
I had NFP stone solid at 77,6 for several days in the past week and the Full rated range was bounging on SMT from 487 to 493 . During The charge and the value on the screen was instead always 489-490.

The Scroll on app depends too much on temp and it changes very much depending on the moment (expecially past the last App update on Android).

Full rated range is most probable a SMT calculation from present range/SOC.
This would be the easiest way to explain the varying full rated range.
Teslafi have a similar behavior, teslafi get the present range(battery range) and SOC(in whole percent). Despite having the same 80.4kWh nominal full pack for weeks I see daily variations in the teslafi range, about 7-8 km or 1.5%.

SMT show a higher range than teslafis degradation page.
SMT shows more or less spot on if I compare the SMT most shown value with a full charge range, but teslafi often reports a shorter range, in average about 3-4km below the range I see on a full charge.

 

[ran349]

Can be this New Range with the new UI a good indicator of actual Nominal Full Pack? It's visible only when charging as limit when the cursor is at 100%
View attachment 755346
488 km is what I see in SMT at Full Rated Range and Full Ideal Range:
View attachment 755348
( days ago I was with some decimal more NFP -77,6 Vs 77,4 and FRR was around 490 and 490 km was the same in the car Screen when charging)

And we all know that the slide in THE APP is always a bit OFF:
View attachment 755352

That is interesting. Is that new value only showing 488 when you have the cursor set to 100% while charging? So if you set the cursor to 50% it shows 244 km?
If it is reading equivalent to SMT value, then it should always be 488, as long as SMT shows 77.4 kWh NFP.
The full rated SMT value will bounce around during charging, especially at low SOC, because it is a calculation based on an imprecise rated miles value (no decimal precision).

 

[DBM3P]

That is interesting. Is that new value only showing 488 when you have the cursor set to 100% while charging? So if you set the cursor to 50% it shows 244 km?
If it is reading equivalent to SMT value, then it should always be 488, as long as SMT shows 77.4 kWh NFP.
The full rated SMT value will bounce around during charging, especially at low SOC, because it is a calculation based on an imprecise rated miles value (no decimal precision).

My theory on the difference between SMT rated range and slider rated range is temperature. If it's colder, I always see the screen slightly lower.... but SMT doesn't change as much.

 

[conv90]

That is interesting. Is that new value only showing 488 when you have the cursor set to 100% while charging? So if you set the cursor to 50% it shows 244 km?
If it is reading equivalent to SMT value, then it should always be 488, as long as SMT shows 77.4 kWh NFP.
The full rated SMT value will bounce around during charging, especially at low SOC, because it is a calculation based on an imprecise rated miles value (no decimal precision).

Good questions...
Setting the cursor from car's screen is difficult and not accurate because you have not a precise feeling or evidence to be at 50% or 60 or 70%... 90%.
Going to 100% is the only way to be sure. so when in the middle you are not sure if you ended at 48 or 52 or 51 or near to 50% or precisely to 50%.
BUT you can slide it FROM APP and being sure to be at a precise level (example 50%) because you will see the cursor moving in the car's screen too.
So doing this i had strange neasurements (in my car):
If at 50% I had 260 or 255 ....I don't remember, but for sure not near 244 km
at 60% I'm sure to remember 302 km
and at 80% i remember somethink like under the 5km/% so about 399- or 398 .
So it seems not linear.... or this is reflecting a BMS uncalibrated OR the App selected a 50% of SOC but the screen positions in the "Soc Expected" that it was about 0.7% off (Soc expected 25,7 Vs. SoC 26,4).
Remember: the SOC in the screen of the car is always the SMT SOC EXpected and usually the Soc in the app is the SMT SOC .
the SOC in the screen of the car is SOC EXpected and it starts to shows the percentage when it decrease to ,5.
Example: the screen of the car is 26% when SOC expected is 25,7 but it's 25% when it passes to 25,5 SOC expected. But you can have a different value on APP if the SMT SOC is higher.
I

 

[conv90]

My theory on the difference between SMT rated range and slider rated range is temperature. If it's colder, I always see the screen slightly lower.... but SMT doesn't change as much.

NOT in my car since new APP release.
Not even with car battery fully warmed i have a value (sliding the app cursor) near to the SMT value .
Example: the better i saw lately on app is 480km Vs 487-493 on SMT.

 

[Steen2000]

I would be upset if I did get the NMC, or NCA.

Interesting as always AKKEE. Thanks a lot !
But what do you mean by the sentense above that you would be upset if you got NMC or NCA? Also I thought you did have the NCA in your performance like I assume I have in my LR with the e3ld?