MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AAKEE]

So most likely it is a temporary protection of the battery.

Well, as we said earlier, either temporary or forever depending on if it is Tesla needing more data before unleashing it or if it is the new battery type( low on cobolt) already known to be much more sensitive to cold.
I suspect a combination, because of the quite high restriction on power. We might get less restrictions but I think we maybe dont come all the way to the old 2170-battery.

 

[Mike_m3p]

We know that all the M3SR+ from China and exported to Australia, Singapore, Europe, have batteries based on LFP.

However, I couldn't find anything on M3P or M3LR.

Anyone here have specific knowledge?

 

[TonkyHonk]

What are the chances that Tesla will release a statement concerning this power-limit issues? I mean they have to, no? A performace labeled car that loses so much of its advertised power at <40% SoC... I mean you aren't you adviced to keep SoC between 10% and 80% for your daily commuting tasks? so ~ half the time you are in a state where you hit the powerlimit. Thats just very disappointing. Imho we should make lots of noise so Tesla will hear our concerns.

 

[emmz0r]

For now, in the cold. Not sure how the performance will be when the temperature rises.

And I am guessing that Tesla now has very restricted settings on the new batteries, bit will release more of the potential later on.

No 2021 Teslas in California or Florida etc that proves that the environmental temp matters?

 

[Devils son]

Well, as we said earlier, either temporary or forever depending on if it is Tesla needing more data before unleashing it or if it is the new battery type( low on cobolt) already known to be much more sensitive to cold.
I suspect a combination, because of the quite high restriction on power. We might get less restrictions but I think we maybe dont come all the way to the old 2170-battery.

Well, I can live with some restrictions when it is freezing.

Let’s wait and see.

 

[Devils son]

What are the chances that Tesla will release a statement concerning this power-limit issues? I mean they have to, no? A performace labeled car that loses so much of its advertised power at <40% SoC... I mean you aren't you adviced to keep SoC between 10% and 80% for your daily commuting tasks? so ~ half the time you are in a state where you hit the powerlimit. Thats just very disappointing. Imho we should make lots of noise so Tesla will hear our concerns.

No, Tesla won’t communicate about this.

 

[AAKEE]

Besides power limits, I hade the blue snowflake once, and battery cold enogh not to get any regen/withouth the snow flake once.
Via SMT I saw that there was no regen until the battery cells was clearly above freezing temps, about 2-3 degrees befor I did get regen.
I guess the older bat not need to go above freezing to accept some regen ?

 

[sirld]

I just updated to the latest 2021.4.3, now getting at 48% battery display or distance display 164 miles, so 164/.48=341.666 (550km)

Higher than I was getting before around 328 miles or 333 miles (528 to 535km).

So assuming i can do the above simple calculation, the update has helped.

 

[eivissa]

Here are some extractions of the two videos posted by Björn Nyland about the Performance Refresh vs. LG Long Range Refresh.
-The Base Voltage is pretty much identical until 40% SoC. Then the LG keeps a higher Voltage at lower SoC.
-The Voltage under load is lower with the LG and also it holds that low voltage for much longer. The Performance only touches the lowest point and then settles at a higher voltage.
-This results in much higher voltage sag / drop for the LG at SoC below 40%, which translates in those appaling 0-100 times...

I doubt Tesla can do much about the base voltage of the Panasonic pack below 40%, but they can allow the Voltage to drop deeper (260V vs 280V) and for longer to unleach the power at low SoC.

 

[AAKEE]

I did charge to 100%, did read 507km on display, but this was early in the morning so I didnt think about taking a photo.

”Planned trip” had started to heat the car when I came in the garage the second time to leave for work, so SOC was 99% and the range was down to 504km( actually 505 but before my camera was ready, 504km).
I think we can be sure that they actually tuned the range on ’21 performance to about the EPA range.(still 508 km in smt as full rated range).

 

[FredMt]

but they can allow the Voltage to drop deeper (260V vs 280V) and for longer to unleach the power at low SoC.

Yes, if Tesla didn't do that, maybe it's because it's not recommended for the health of the cells? In particular at low temperature ?

 

[eivissa]

Yes, if Tesla didn't do that, maybe it's because it's not recommended for the health of the cells? In particular at low temperature ?

I've done comparable tests today @ 30°C Cell Temp Mid with the same results:
-Base voltage at 30% and 20% SoC is identical with Björns video.
-Voltage Sag is identical at all SoC below 40% -> A short burst down to 280 and then steady 295V lower limit.

 

[clerks]

I've done comparable tests today @ 30°C Cell Temp Mid with the same results:
-Base voltage at 30% and 20% SoC is identical with Björns video.
-Voltage Sag is identical at all SoC below 40% -> A short burst down to 280 and then steady 295V lower limit.

View attachment 637247 View attachment 637248

So are you saying that this is not related to the sub zero temperatures at all? So everyone saying this is a niche problem limited to sub zero temps is incorrect?

 

[Venom]

So as someone who has a M3P on order, would it be best to pause?

Also, what battery pack is the new Model S using in it's base model? Panasonic or LG?



@eivissa Curious as to why this video shows hardly any performance degradation from 100% to 29%:

 

[thinger]

Here are some extractions of the two videos posted by Björn Nyland about the Performance Refresh vs. LG Long Range Refresh.
-The Base Voltage is pretty much identical until 40% SoC. Then the LG keeps a higher Voltage at lower SoC.
-The Voltage under load is lower with the LG and also it holds that low voltage for much longer. The Performance only touches the lowest point and then settles at a higher voltage.
-This results in much higher voltage sag / drop for the LG at SoC below 40%, which translates in those appaling 0-100 times...

I doubt Tesla can do much about the base voltage of the Panasonic pack below 40%, but they can allow the Voltage to drop deeper (260V vs 280V) and for longer to unleach the power at low SoC.

View attachment 636899 View attachment 636900 View attachment 636901 View attachment 636902

Thanks for this. Could you little bit clarify to noob what is that boost? I understand that base. But not understand how to read this?

Edit. Is that lower boost voltage meaning more power out to motors?

 

[AAKEE]

So are you saying that this is not related to the sub zero temperatures at all? So everyone saying this is a niche problem limited to sub zero temps is incorrect?

Voltage drop in one thing, internal resistance is another.

If you limit the minimum voltage, and have very low internal resistance you can get high power despite the voltage limit.
If you limit the minimum voltage(same voltage as above) but have a battery with high internal resistance the power output will be low.

Internal resistance is what causes the voltage to drop(from resting voltage) during load. High internal resistance = high voltage drop, and vice versa.

It is possible that the internal resistance is higher then other batteryes when the cells are cold, and thus low power.

 

[clerks]

Voltage drop in one thing, internal resistance is another.

If you limit the minimum voltage, and have very low internal resistance you can get high power despite the voltage limit.
If you limit the minimum voltage(same voltage as above) but have a battery with high internal resistance the power output will be low.

Internal resistance is what causes the voltage to drop(from resting voltage) during load. High internal resistance = high voltage drop, and vice versa.

It is possible that the internal resistance is higher then other batteryes when the cells are cold, and thus low power.

I see. Interesting. What would be the cause of higher internal resistance at colder temps? Just chemistry?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So everyone saying this is a niche problem limited to sub zero temps is incorrect?

You keep on saying that people are saying that as a blanket statement, but at least I can assure you that that is not what I have suggested, in the messages I have written in reply to your concerns. There are a lot of factors here, and they have to be untangled. We do know that cold weather doesn't help, of course.

All else being equal (including temperatures), the higher voltage limit on the new Performance cells vs. the prior versions of the Performance, under load, is going to limit the power output substantially vs. the prior Performance (because you can draw less current before hitting the limit). That seems clear - there's not really any way around it unless the new cell actually has lower internal resistance at a given temperature than the prior cell (again...the caveat was "all else being equal")! Anyway, there are a variety of cell-related reasons that this voltage limit may exist - and I think many people have repeatedly stated here that we don't know how this story will play out.

Keep an eye on @MasterC17's posts as I said - he performance tests the car and has/had a 2018 Performance as well. Comments on Performance Model 3 Drag Race

It's not also not clear that the voltage restrictions in Europe are the same as in the US. The vehicles for 2021 probably perform the same way, but there's a lack of data from the US at low SoC (perhaps it's around if you search for it - I have no idea). So I would just caution you should be careful about drawing firm conclusions from the European data (even though it's probably fine to do so).

Since you own the car already (I think), I'd just recommend patience and seeing what happens. It's not unusual at all for Tesla to roll out software updates which significantly alter the car's performance, so you can hold out hope for that if you want. If you don't own the car already, and you're not happy with it, don't buy it.

 

[clerks]

You keep on saying that people are saying that as a blanket statement, but at least I can assure you that that is not what I have suggested, in the messages I have written in reply to your concerns.

Definitely was not singling you out at all. If you follow the various discussions here, on Reddit and on other Tesla forums a lot of people are dismissing this as noise tied to the sub zero temps. My guess is anyone saying that isn’t the owner or about to be an owner of a 2021 M3P. As for me, yeah I’m stuck with this mess since I already own the car but that doesn’t mean I can’t be upset about it or help shed light on the issue for prospective owners. As for patience, I’m not very good at that so I’ll probably keep chirping about it here and elsewhere. The more awareness we collectively raise on the topic, the more pressure Tesla will have to address it. The bottom line is that none of this is acceptable and the potential answer that the 2021M3P is just going to perform worse than a 3 year old model or a LR at cold temps or otherwise just isn’t going to cut it for me. As for new prospective buyers, this would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.

 

[eivissa]

@eivissa Curious as to why this video shows hardly any performance degradation from 100% to 29%:

I can only assume that with every run the battery was heating up more and more. A battery at 35°C cell temperature can still pull well at 30% SoC.

The thing is, that the scenario of low SoC and high battery temperature is not a common situation in day to day driving. Usually you start with a warm battery, which then discharges and gets colder with the new octovalve/heat pump.

I have had a situation recently when at -6°C air temperature the battery heater stopped heating up the battery any further than 10°C cell temp. On that route I couldnt drive faster than 120kph, so I could only look at my battery being stuck at 10°C while discharging. Even at high SoC the car was never gonna show its full potential.

This is all probably great for efficiency...not so great for a performance car.