Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure pointing out you grossly misrepresented the actual facts of the matter is being an apologist for anything other than basic honesty.
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MASTER THREAD: Auto Wiper functionality, complaints, praise, etc.
- Thread starter RC2785
- Start date
I'm not sure pointing out you grossly misrepresented the actual facts of the matter is being an apologist for anything other than basic honesty.
I just want the wipers to work as well as any car with a rain sensor does. A small ask. I don't care if it requires 5 billion in nvidia cards to train it to notice rain, i just want it to work 
I wonder if Tesla is still money ahead on the manhours required trying to make the software for cameras to realize it's raining vs just using a rain sensor.I just want the wipers to work as well as any car with a rain sensor does. A small ask. I don't care if it requires 5 billion in nvidia cards to train it to notice rain, i just want it to work
I just want them to work as well as the ones in my truck, and work when it's dark.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Retroactively possibly not... but they're doing this with the idea of it'll be saving $ across 20 million cars, every year, eventually.
Which they could have done WITH a rain sensor so everybody that has a car now doesn't have a crappy experience. Just unfortunate as it's by far the worst part about my car.
iwannam3
Active Member
The wipers seem more sensitive after the last update, even to the point of "panic" wiping a couple times that I controlled by pressing the wash button.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not really though.
First it would've cost them millions of dollars for the millions of cars already made to put sensors in.... second they wouldn't be able to get the data they need to continue development on the no-sensor system if they instead used a system with a sensor since they'd never get any "isn't working perfectly" data at all.
That's on top of the tens of millions of FUTURE cars it'd cost them $ to put a sensor in if they never worked on a sensor-less system.
FWIW my own experience is that when my car was new in 2018 it was not great at all-- today it's probably 98% as good as the rain-sensor-having Lexus I had before it.
That 2% is still noticeable when it happens (though usually fixable with just a tap on the end of the stalk), but pretty rare.
You're just making excuses. Of course they could get the data they need because it should have already started to wipe by the time the rain sensor activated wipe wipes the water away. It's a cost cutting measure at the detriment of the user experience, plain and simple.
There is no way it's 98%. It might be 80% in the daylight but it's about 50% at night at best.
There is no way it's 98%. It might be 80% in the daylight but it's about 50% at night at best.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, I'm providing fact based information and explaination
Clearly Teslas massive sales growth in the years since they dropped the sensor seem to support the idea what they've got hasn't hindered buyers from showing up either.
...what?
You need a lot more data than "when did a physical sensor activate" to train a neural network.
There is no way you're qualified to tell me my own personal experience with a thing. Not sure why you'd think you are.
But yes it's 98% in most conditions. Most of the 2% as I say is fixable with a tap on the end of the stalk- usually when it's either a really light sprinkle, or there's light sprinkle residue but not actively raining when I first get in-- the remainder of the 2% is the rare time it wipes on a dry windshield because of specific sun glare or something- which is even more rare, but also more annoying since you can't just "fix" that with a button tap. It virtually never needs anything anymore when it's actually really raining
Pagemakers
Active Member
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not as often as I'd like, and never with my Tesla.
My location is in my sig, weirdly it's the same state as the guy who's telling me my personal experience is impossible.
(that said, it's potentially a near 10 hour drive furthest east to furthest west in this state, so weather living in one part CAN vary some from living in another part)
Pagemakers
Active Member
Ah. NC.
Here in the UK most people would tell you the wipers are woeful. In my 8 years of S & 3 ownership they are poor beyond belief. I don’t doubt your experiences but here in the UK our software is quite different and the wipers are pants. Didn’t realise the other poster was in the same state so I can’t comment on that.
@Knightshade at least you own the fact you like to endlessly argue on the internet instead of accept points. Here i'll play your pedantic game
Are you? Do you have wiper stats that show it's 98% effective as it would be or are you just guessing?
Are you a neural net expert? I'm not either but it's pretty basic to collect data continuously and if the wipers wipe from the rain sensor, you obviously should have wiped based off the data you already saw. Call it a rain sensor intervention if you want. In fact, i'd argue it could have rapidly improved the non rain sensor product if they were launched in conjunction in 2017/2018 and maybe the point would be moot by now.
Looking forward to your analytics on this since you are the purveyor of fact based information and "explaination" to show this isn't just a random number that is biased because it saves money in the long run.
Now, doesn't it seem silly to do all this. Let's just agree Tesla dropped the ball in an effort to save money and made the user experience worse. It's not exactly an anomaly in Tesla's playbook and I say that as a person that greatly enjoys their car overall.
Are you? Do you have wiper stats that show it's 98% effective as it would be or are you just guessing?
Perhaps maybe it has to do with the fact they removed the rain sensor when they launched greatly reduced cost vehicles maybe? Do you have data that shows the impact the bad wipers had on the user experience and impact or lack of impact to sales? Perhaps Tesla would have sold 200k more vehicles if their friends didn't tell them the wipers sucked. who knows?
Are you a neural net expert? I'm not either but it's pretty basic to collect data continuously and if the wipers wipe from the rain sensor, you obviously should have wiped based off the data you already saw. Call it a rain sensor intervention if you want. In fact, i'd argue it could have rapidly improved the non rain sensor product if they were launched in conjunction in 2017/2018 and maybe the point would be moot by now.
Looking forward to your analytics on this since you are the purveyor of fact based information and "explaination" to show this isn't just a random number that is biased because it saves money in the long run.
Now, doesn't it seem silly to do all this. Let's just agree Tesla dropped the ball in an effort to save money and made the user experience worse. It's not exactly an anomaly in Tesla's playbook and I say that as a person that greatly enjoys their car overall.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
@Knightshade at least you own the fact you like to endlessly argue on the internet instead of accept points. Here i'll play your pedantic game
Nice ad hominem! Also, you don't appear to be "playing" it very well.
Do you have some to support your 80 in daylight and 50% claim?
Or are you, like me, just estimating from your personal experience... but unlike me you're also insisting all OTHER personal experience in all conditions must be wrong?
I mean, 3 was cheaper than S/X, but still comparably priced to other vehicles in its class that had rain sensors like the BMW 3 series, Lexus IS, Infinity Q50, Audi S/A4, etc.... And it quickly went to the sales leader in its category without having a rain sensor.
So yes, it sure appears the lack of a rain sensor was fine with buyers who had plenty of same-class alternatives WITH a sensor and chose Tesla instead.
I CAN cite not just the repeatedly growing sales but also the exceedingly high scores in owner satisfaction surveys however during those years, all of which seem to refute your claims.
Can you cite... anything.... at all... to support your claims it impacted either measure?
Seemingly everyone but you knows.
Tesla didn't have 200k more to sell. Tesla sells out virtually 100% of production at all times... Typical car industry inventory is 60-90 days of stock. Teslas over the years since they dropped the rain sensor have been in the 0-15 day range instead, largely representing time in transit from factory to lot.
I like how you answered your question to me by telling us YOU don't know and therefore it's impossible I do
But this is one of those if you don't understand that fundamental a difference (likewise they don't "train" FSD simply by telling it to parrot every single time a human does a thing) it's really beyond the scope of the thread to try and teach it to you-- google visual recognition of rain and start with some of the papers there if you're interested in learning.For you to keep insisting my own personal experience isn't real and to keep repeating numerous claims you've made with no ability to support them (and often visible ignorance of why they can't be true like your "sell 200k more cars" claim)? Yes, that DOES seem silly. Why do you keep doing it?
You've supported nothing but made straw arguments. Sales are up so wipers must not be an issue! lol I've not stated your experience isn't real i'm simply stating that you take yours as factual when you have no data to back it up. Likewise, you take small bits of actual fact and pivot them to your narrative that only makes a point in a vacuum. For instance, yes tesla does have relatively low inventory. However they've greatly slashed prices to cater demand to production and they've not ran production 24/7 all the time and especially not in europe. If one was to read your statement you've catered to make people think Tesla is going full tilt and is selling everything they can despite the rain sensor issue and never had to slash prices well in excess of a rain sensor to keep inventory low.
TL;dr the Tesla replacement for rain sensor 6+ years in still isn't as good as an actual rain sensor
TL;dr the Tesla replacement for rain sensor 6+ years in still isn't as good as an actual rain sensor
iwannam3
Active Member
No one tests the wipers unless it happens to be raining on test drive like no one tests the headlight until they own the car.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I do not think that means what you think it means.
Not what I said.
My ACTUAL words were:
You then just tried to do the exact strawman thing you accused me of by changing my actual words, which are about the fact any issue with the wipers hasn't kept buyers away into "the wipers aren't an issue at all"
You literally did
I wrote-
and you replied-
You said no way my experience was true, then tried to tell me what my experience ACTUALLY was "at best"
If you can't argue honestly, why argue at all?
Here you go again. When you give a percentage is it a fact or isn't it? I took your percentage to mean an estimate which clearly mine is. Yours also is an estimate unless you have data that shows your 98%. Do you?
Let me make this simple for you. Do you think that the fact Tesla launched their car with no rain sensor and no replacement of equal efficacy has been to the detriment of the experience of the consumer? It's a simple yes or no.
