Mercedes approved for ACTUAL self driving in the USA. And will accept responsibility.

[alstoralset]

Mercedes-Benz DRIVE PILOT becomes first Level 3 autonomous driving system to be certified for US roads

Mercedes-Benz may be celebrating on the casino floor in Las Vegas right now – it has announced its DRIVE PILOT...

electrek.co

Mercedes-Benz beats Elon Musk's Tesla to 'full self-driving' crown with new car

The German automaker claims it has beaten Tesla boss Elon Musk to 'Level 3' self-driving automation - which means Mercedes now sells a car more capable of driving itself than a Tesla

www.dailystar.co.uk

It's limited to 40MPH (and initially to Nevada), but very interesting if it actually works. Pricing starts at $5300.

 

[Tam]

It's limited to 40MPH (and initially to Nevada), but very interesting if it actually works. Pricing starts at $5300.

That should be a typo because Mercedes would bear the responsibility during the operation in L3. A gentle 40 MPH rear-end accident would cost much more than $5,300!

 

[helvio]

In one of the demo videos, I saw a MB engineer saying that they'd take responsibility for any accidents while on L3.

All in all, I think this is great news! Not because I think this is a great technological accomplishment by MB, but a bureaucratic accomplishment, opening the door for other players. Yes, Tesla. We'll soon be able to *legally* play on phone/screen games while AP/NoA/FSD is engaged.

 

[240vPlug]

Will be very interesting to see where this goes.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That should be a typo because Mercedes would bear the responsibility during the operation in L3. A gentle 40 MPH rear-end accident would cost much more than $5,300!

That’s why they have cameras, radar, and LiDAR. They even have a microphone in the wheel well to detect wet roads.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

That’s why they have cameras, radar, and LiDAR. They even have a microphone in the wheel well to detect wet roads.

There is no reason Telsa cannot use the microphone in the car to detect the wet roads. Should be straightforward. I can tell when it is raining or the roads are wet, by looking at the camera feeds (namely if I can’t see sh** then I know the roads are wet). L3 here we come. This is the advantage of Mercedes L3; it enables Tesla L3.

One of the clickbait articles above talks separately about a road-wetness sensor (not explicitly an mocrophone) and microphone for emergency vehicles. I assume that is just misinformation.

 

[Twiglett]

After all these years I really think MB have the best approach.
Instead of years and years of trying boil the ocean and a myriad of false starts, redoes and new hardware, MB have delivered a hands off system with liability within a fixed set of boundaries.
Step outside those boundaries and it quits working.
Also worth pointing out that the completed system in 30% of the cost of Tesla's unfinished system.

 

[Daniel in SD]

After all these years I really think MB have the best approach.
Instead of years and years of trying boil the ocean and a myriad of false starts, redoes and new hardware, MB have delivered a hands off system with liability within a fixed set of boundaries.
Step outside those boundaries and it quits working.
Also worth pointing out that the completed system in 30% of the cost of Tesla's unfinished system.

Getting it to work at 65mph would be the killer app. Then it would cover a significant percentage of driving here in Southern California.
Of course we’ll have to see if it actually achieves their safety target. I suspect that they haven’t actually tested it enough to know for sure.

 

[Dewg]

Getting it to work at 65mph would be the killer app. Then it would cover a significant percentage of driving here in Southern California.
Of course we’ll have to see if it actually achieves their safety target. I suspect that they haven’t actually tested it enough to know for sure.

Is that the threshold? Still needs a lead car? Still can't handle sharper curves?

 

[AndrewZ]

In one of the demo videos, I saw a MB engineer saying that they'd take responsibility for any accidents while on L3.

All in all, I think this is great news! Not because I think this is a great technological accomplishment by MB, but a bureaucratic accomplishment, opening the door for other players. Yes, Tesla. We'll soon be able to *legally* play on phone/screen games while AP/NoA/FSD is engaged.

The day Tesla starts using verbiage similar to that of Mercedes’ Drive Pilot page, that will be a great day. However, I’m not sure bureaucratic roadblocks will be the issue as much as the company’s own risk mitigation.

But considering Tesla has made an absolute boatload of money from things like EAP and FSD while taking on zero liability except maybe for some litigation that would spend years in the system, I doubt there’s much incentive to deviate. Hopefully I’m wrong.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Is that the threshold? Still needs a lead car? Still can't handle sharper curves?

The threshold is only 40mph, so it only works in traffic jams. I was just hoping that at some point there would be progress. Maybe they can increase the speed by 5mph a year...
I doubt they're going to have to gaps in the supported roads for curves. I guess we'll have to wait to see which roads they support.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is that the threshold? Still needs a lead car? Still can't handle sharper curves?

I guess you have not driven in SoCal? If you’re going less than 65mph you have a lead car! The sharper curves, we will see. Depends on the sharpness of course. Normally would not be an issue. Also not sure technically why it would be a huge problem for them so I guess we’ll see.

 

[Dewg]

I guess you have not driven in SoCal? If you’re going less than 65mph you have a lead car! The sharper curves, we will see. Depends on the sharpness of course. Normally would not be an issue. Also not sure technically why it would be a huge problem for them so I guess we’ll see.

I haven't driven in SoCal, no.

I would agree with you in San Diego (I hate Del Mar traffic), and when I head up to Los Angeles, but in OC, and the stretch down I-5 towards SD through Pendleton, I'm frequently driving with no lead car as there isn't much traffic heading down there in the morning (until you get to around Encinitas or Lego Land).

My point is that they have to do much more than just increase the speed limit for L3 - they have to eliminate the lead car requirement, and handle sharper curves.

I'm still convinced that people aren't prepared for the reality of L3+ driving. People are going to enable it and then when it gets to 65MPH on the freeway (the speed limit here in SoCal), they're going to try to figure out how to increase the speed and find they can't. They'll be stuck with the trucks in the truck lane, and that's going to piss people off.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm frequently driving with no lead car as there isn't much traffic heading down there in the morning (until you get to around Encinitas or Lego Land).

Right, but you’d be going WELL over 65. Usually 80-85mph.

they have to eliminate the lead car requirement

No they really don’t below 65mph or so in most circumstances. If you’re traveling that slowly, you’ll invariably have many, many lead cars.

They'll be stuck with the trucks in the truck lane, and that's going to piss people off.

No they’ll just drive themselves (with assistance features) because they’ll be rapidly getting to their destination and going fast requires good attention. 80mph is a lot more dangerous than 40mph!

 

[Daniel in SD]

I haven't driven in SoCal, no.

I would agree with you in San Diego (I hate Del Mar traffic), and when I head up to Los Angeles, but in OC, and the stretch down I-5 towards SD through Pendleton, I'm frequently driving with no lead car as there isn't much traffic heading down there in the morning (until you get to around Encinitas or Lego Land).

My point is that they have to do much more than just increase the speed limit for L3 - they have to eliminate the lead car requirement, and handle sharper curves.

I'm still convinced that people aren't prepared for the reality of L3+ driving. People are going to enable it and then when it gets to 65MPH on the freeway (the speed limit here in SoCal), they're going to try to figure out how to increase the speed and find they can't. They'll be stuck with the trucks in the truck lane, and that's going to piss people off.

First they have to get it reliable enough at 65mph in the first place. I wonder how much having a lead car improves safety (obviously it's necessary if you're going to go 40mph on an interstate). After those two things I doubt curves will present any problem.
As far as driving 65mph on the freeway, I see people doing that all the time. I drive faster but I'd be happy to have the car drive me at 65mph if it meant I could watch TV.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I wonder how much having a lead car improves safety

It is a weird restriction. For humans a lead car at the super tight spacing of 100 meters would definitely reduce safety, since you can’t see anything. Even for animals it won’t provide much cover.


I guess you may be right, as I think you were suggesting - it may be a restriction just to ensure that the system won’t immediately have to disengage.

I think the speed limit as currently set up is too low. Stop-and-go traffic often goes 50-60mph. It is very annoying!

Now we just have to make sure the way it drives is set up to counteract the accordion behavior rather than making it worse. Quite a challenge!

 

[stopcrazypp]

First they have to get it reliable enough at 65mph in the first place. I wonder how much having a lead car improves safety (obviously it's necessary if you're going to go 40mph on an interstate). After those two things I doubt curves will present any problem.
As far as driving 65mph on the freeway, I see people doing that all the time. I drive faster but I'd be happy to have the car drive me at 65mph if it meant I could watch TV.

The speed restriction may have to do more with probability of fatality in an accident being lower at 40mph than with being "capable" of going 65 mph. I can imagine lawyers and bean counters at Mercedes doing all sorts of calculations of the probability of various accidents and the cost in potential liability.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It is a weird restriction. For humans a lead car at the super tight spacing of 100 meters would definitely reduce safety, since you can’t see anything. Even for animals it won’t provide much cover.


I guess you may be right, as I think you were suggesting - it may be a restriction just to ensure that the system won’t immediately have to disengage.

I think the speed limit as currently set up is too low. Stop-and-go traffic often goes 50-60mph. It is very annoying!

Now we just have to make sure the way it drives is set up to counteract the accordion behavior rather than making it worse. Quite a challenge!

Aside from being a decent heuristic of the planned ODD: a traffic jam (it's not likely to be a traffic jam if you don't have a lead car), having a lead car offloads some processing of hazards to the car(s) ahead. Essentially for sudden conditions like an animal running into the road, there are cars ahead that likely will respond to it, and given it has radar, it probably has a far easier time responding to a lead car slowing down, than directly to the animal.

It reduces the chance of an at fault accident (where car fails to respond). If the sudden condition was such that it would have likely been unavoidable (like the animal jumping in between the two cars or the lead car having better braking capabilities than the Mercedes) it wouldn't be classified as at fault.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Aside from being a decent heuristic of the planned ODD: a traffic jam (it's not likely to be a traffic jam if you don't have a lead car), having a lead car offloads some processing of hazards to the car(s) ahead. Essentially for sudden conditions like an animal running into the road, there are cars ahead that likely will respond to it, and given it has radar, it probably has a far easier time responding to a lead car slowing down, than directly to the animal.

It reduces the chance of an at fault accident (where car fails to respond). If the sudden condition was such that it would have likely been unavoidable (like the animal jumping in between the two cars or the lead car having better braking capabilities than the Mercedes) it wouldn't be classified as at fault.

Maybe. Honestly doesn’t sound great for safety or capabilities if you have to have a lead car to reduce the chances of running into stationary objects on the road. This happens all the time of course!

I’ve had to dodge a full size intact couch, a commercial-sized (6’ by 4’ by 4’) HVAC unit (??? - it was big and steel/aluminum and had pipes and radiators), and the top of a Jeep (my lead vehicle!) at freeway speeds (70-80mph), so far. All of these would have been easier for me to dodge without lead vehicles.

But I guess Mercedes is replacing a situation with lead vehicles so maybe it doesn’t make things actually worse. I just don’t trust it, though! Fortunately it will be going a lot more slowly than freeway speeds so maybe there is hope.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Maybe. Honestly doesn’t sound great for safety or capabilities if you have to have a lead car to reduce the chances of running into stationary objects on the road. This happens all the time of course!

I’ve had to dodge a full size intact couch, a commercial-sized (6’ by 4’ by 4’) HVAC unit (??? - it was big and steel/aluminum and had pipes and radiators), and the top of a Jeep (my lead vehicle!) at freeway speeds (70-80mph), so far. All of these would have been easier for me to dodge without lead vehicles.

But I guess Mercedes is replacing a situation with lead vehicles so maybe it doesn’t make things actually worse. I just don’t trust it, though! Fortunately it will be going a lot more slowly than freeway speeds so maybe there is hope.

Well you are thinking like a human, where it is relatively trivial for you to identify and respond to those objects same as if they were cars (putting aside for the scenario of objects falling off a lead vehicle, Mercedes wouldn't be at fault). But we've seen clearly this is not the case for most ADAS. For most systems, they have long been rock solid in responding to a lead car, even with relatively simple sensors (that has long been how ACC was designed), but responding to objects that are not cars is decidedly a mixed bag. It's not that the car is unable to do that at all, it's that it helps in the probabilities, as even the best L4 solutions today are not flawless (for example even Waymo still has random halting according to latest reports, even though it is very rare).