Mercedes approved for ACTUAL self driving in the USA. And will accept responsibility.

[AlanSubie4Life]

Well you are thinking like a human, where it is relatively trivial for you to identify and respond to those objects same as if they were cars (putting aside for the scenario of objects falling off a lead vehicle, Mercedes wouldn't be at fault). But we've seen clearly this is not the case for most ADAS. For most systems, they have long been rock solid in responding to a lead car, even with relatively simple sensors (that has long been how ACC was designed), but responding to objects that are not cars is decidedly a mixed bag. It's not that the car is unable to do that at all, it's that it helps in the probabilities, as even the best L4 solutions today are not flawless (for example even Waymo still has random halting according to latest reports, even though it is very rare).

One thing to think about is that the lead vehicles for the AC unit didn’t really slow down that much. They just went around it. We were going 80mph and maybe got down to 55mph at the lowest - it is dangerous to slow down on the freeway and traffic conditions were such that slowing a lot did not make sense since you could just safely swerve into adjacent lanes (it was in #2, slightly toward the #1, and I went for #2.5).

Obviously a bit off topic at this point since the Mercedes would be traveling much more slowly. Just pointing out that there are many situations where obstacles are avoided without slowing - there is no reason for a lead vehicle without lead vehicles to slow since it can see the object coming for hundreds of yards.

I think the video had an example of a “cut out” though. Hard to tell how well it was handled exactly without accelerometer data.

I wonder what the minimum allowed distance is? I’d like to see a cutout for the surprise reveal of a stationary vehicle at maximum speed, last second, at minimum following distance. Not sure how comfortable it would be. Obviously they would have tested this.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One thing to think about is that the lead vehicles for the AC unit didn’t really slow down that much. They just went around it. We were going 80mph and maybe got down to 55mph at the lowest - it is dangerous to slow down on the freeway and traffic conditions were such that slowing a lot did not make sense since you could just safely swerve into adjacent lanes (it was in #2, slightly toward the #1, and I went for #2.5).

Obviously a bit off topic at this point since the Mercedes would be traveling much more slowly. Just pointing out that there are many situations where obstacles are avoided without slowing - there is no reason for a lead vehicle without lead vehicles to slow since it can see the object coming for hundreds of yards.

I think the video had an example of a “cut out” though. Hard to tell how well it was handled exactly without accelerometer data.

Slowing from 80 to 55mph is a lot, people here in the forums would scream PHANTOM BRAKING. They do that even for 5 or 10 mph slowdowns.

Aside from that being a sign something is wrong, the action of the lead vehicle leaving the lane is another trigger. This is the target switching scenario, that has been tested in AEB cases:
We Crash Four Cars Repeatedly to Test Their Automatic Braking Systems

I remember either Mercedes or Volvo doing a demo of a similar scenario in the past (wasn't L3), but couldn't find the video at the moment. So this is something they likely have been testing for a while already,

 

[Tam]

"It’s worth noting that the current 40-mph limit is regulatory, not technical. Mercedes plans to raise it to around 70 mph via an over-the-air update as federal and state laws allow."

We Test Out The Hands-Free Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot Level 3 System

The Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot Level 3 hands-free driver assistance system is now road-legal in at least one US state, so we took it for a ride.

www.motor1.com

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Yes I wonder what the penalty is for vehicular homicide under L3+ and who/what goes to jail. I expect we'll find out soon enough. Will vary by state and country, and there will be criminal/non-criminal varieties of charges no doubt. Presumably they will be "unintentional" unless you can prove the car meant to do it...

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that "unintentional", if proven, by definition cannot be "homicide". Accidental manslaughter at best.
Homicide requires intent. So unless you can prove the AI running the vehicle had intent to kill, no L3+ would ever be able to be charged with homicide. Maybe I'm wrong, like I said, not a lawyer.

We're getting waaaay ahead of ourselves anyway.
All of these innovations are going to be slow baby steps. And we should all be happy with any positive movement toward to ultimate goal. I realize some of you drank Elon's kool-aid and want L5 now, but the reality is most of us probably won't live to see it's true form. Even if the software becomes good enough, the legislative red tape alone will hold it all back for decades while other manufacturers catchup so that there isn't a monopoly, because God forbid we have a true capitalistic model in this country. Anyway, not getting political.
Just pointing out there are a lot more variables in play besides the base problems of hardware/software.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

That won't happen. When the limit changes, or traffic picks up speed, the car will alert you that it's going to hand back control in 10 seconds, which is enough time to stop gaming and drive manually.

Or it just continues at 35 mph until the driver does take over.
This could itself be dangerous if for some reason the driver became incapacitated during the L3 time. (ie, stroke, heartattack, even narcolepcy)
I think the L3 system would need to have a time limit and if no response, it would have to be able to safely pull over and engage hazard lights or something of that nature. But I think that's why the regulations are there. L3 has to be able to handle those kind of scenarios before it's going to be accepted by regulators. It can't just be able to drive in a straight line, brake and accel, lane change. That's why these things are so slow in development. Baby steps.

 

[Konicom04]

This approval is only for driving in the state of Nevada.

Isn't there like - umm - three roads in Nevada? That should be easy

 

[Dewg]

Or it just continues at 35 mph until the driver does take over.
This could itself be dangerous if for some reason the driver became incapacitated during the L3 time. (ie, stroke, heartattack, even narcolepcy)
I think the L3 system would need to have a time limit and if no response, it would have to be able to safely pull over and engage hazard lights or something of that nature. But I think that's why the regulations are there. L3 has to be able to handle those kind of scenarios before it's going to be accepted by regulators. It can't just be able to drive in a straight line, brake and accel, lane change. That's why these things are so slow in development. Baby steps.

Current ODD requires a lead car, so when speed limits or traffic increases speed, it would have to hand back control.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

It will come to a gradual stop if you don't respond at all (just like how AP does). However, when that ~7-10 second timer is over, technically it is out of L3 mode already and you are responsible for anything that happens.

If you watch the videos, the steering indicator turns red, there is an auditory alert, your seat belts progressively tighten, so it is very hard to miss. In California also it is currently not legal to use a separate device, so whatever you do would have to be on the center screen, so Mercedes can simply shut that off or display a message on top to get your attention.

There are plenty of scenarios where coming to a stop in the middle of the road is far from ideal, at any speed.
It's go to be able to remove itself from harms way.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Current ODD requires a lead car, so when speed limits or traffic increases speed, it would have to hand back control.

So is it going to accelerate past the limit, whether you take control or not? Then what, you're just SOL?

 

[kpanda17]

Come on Lucid and Fisker, put your egos aside
Follow Tesla

 

[Dewg]

So is it going to accelerate past the limit, whether you take control or not? Then what, you're just SOL?

No, it will stay at 35MPH, and the moment the lead car exceeds the ODD, it will warn the driver to take over in 7-10 seconds. If the driver fails to take over, it will fall back to safety protocols and put on the hazards and slow the vehicle to a stop.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

No, it will stay at 35MPH, and the moment the lead car exceeds the ODD, it will warn the driver to take over in 7-10 seconds. If the driver fails to take over, it will fall back to safety protocols and put on the hazards and slow the vehicle to a stop.

So it slows the vehicle to a stop in whatever lane it's in?

Hypothetically, you could be in the middle lane of a 3-lane hwy, and just as the traffic around you is accelerating to 40-45mph, your car decides to turn on the hazards and slow to a stop, in the middle of the hwy. Which would expose the car to a rear end collision if a following car reacts late and switches lanes, while the tailgater behind them is then late to react to your stopped car.

Don't know about you, but I won't be trusting any L3 until it's capable of safely maneuvering to an emergency lane, median, or otherwise out of traffic location before stopping.

 

[Dewg]

Hypothetically, you could be in the middle lane of a 3-lane hwy, and just as the traffic around you is accelerating to 40-45mph, your car decides to turn on the hazards and slow to a stop, in the middle of the hwy. Which would expose the car to a rear end collision if a following car reacts late and switches lanes, while the tailgater behind them is then late to react to your stopped car.

Correct, it would slow to a stop in the lane it is in. This is common in advanced L2 (like Tesla), and L3 vehicles for safety. If the driver had a heart attack, or other medical emergency and was unconscious, the best thing to do is slow down and stop in the lane.

No, this would not expose the car to a rear end collision. The hazards come on, and the car slows gently to a stop - it's not slamming on the brakes. If the car in front of you were to put their hazards on and then start to slow down gently, would you just plow into them? Of course not. If there was a car broken down on the road, with their hazards on, and you switch lanes, the car following you could hit them if they don't react fast enough. There is nothing you can do to prevent that unlikely scenario, and does not mean the L3 car was unsafe or acted inappropriately.

You're afraid this will happen all the time - it won't.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So it slows the vehicle to a stop in whatever lane it's in?

Hypothetically, you could be in the middle lane of a 3-lane hwy, and just as the traffic around you is accelerating to 40-45mph, your car decides to turn on the hazards and slow to a stop, in the middle of the hwy. Which would expose the car to a rear end collision if a following car reacts late and switches lanes, while the tailgater behind them is then late to react to your stopped car.

Don't know about you, but I won't be trusting any L3 until it's capable of safely maneuvering to an emergency lane, median, or otherwise out of traffic location before stopping.

What you are asking for is L4 then, and not even L4 cars are necessarily required to be able to do that. In L3, once that 10 second-ish counter ends, the car becomes your full responsibility. Technically it can even do nothing (just disable completely, so car coasts to a stop with no system actively steering to keep it in lane), so coming to a stop in it's lane with hazard lights is an improvement over that already.

 

[JB47394]

There is nothing you can do to prevent that unlikely scenario, and does not mean the L3 car was unsafe or acted inappropriately.

I agree with many things you say, but this ain't one of them. An autonomous car does well to stop in the lane because that's obviously better than barreling down the road and hitting something. But stopping in the roadway is very definitely in the category of Unsafe. In my state, it's even legal under certain circumstances (accidents, emergencies, etc), but that doesn't make it safe. Even stopping on the shoulder is unsafe, and folks die that way.

I don't mean to be pedantic here. Driving is inherently unsafe, but stopping on a highway is orders of magnitude worse.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

What you are asking for is L4 then, and not even L4 cars are necessarily required to be able to do that. In L3, once that 10 second-ish counter ends, the car becomes your full responsibility. Technically it can even do nothing (just disable completely, so car coasts to a stop with no system actively steering to keep it in lane), so coming to a stop in it's lane with hazard lights is an improvement over that already.

Okay, so I can see why the jump from L2 to L3 is so big. Whereas the jump from L3 to L4 doesn't seem as far.
It makes perfect sense that getting to L3 would be harder, going from our control to car control.
L3 to L4 is just a level up in car controls, but no driver involvement. Just AI, hardware/software improvements at that point.

 

[Dan D.]

But stopping in the roadway is very definitely in the category of Unsafe. Even stopping on the shoulder is unsafe, and folks die that way.

I don't mean to be pedantic here. Driving is inherently unsafe, but stopping on a highway is orders of magnitude worse.

"Once stopped, the car will even activate the Mercedes-Benz emergency call system and unlock the doors for first responders"


Don't worry. With any luck the ambulance will get there just as you're smashed into. Probably by an L2 car.

F1 cars get smashed into all the time when they are stationary, and those are excellent alert drivers with track-side warning systems. Stationary in the road is hugely dangerous.

 

[Tam]

Isn't there like - umm - three roads in Nevada? That should be easy

It was approved in California last month, also. Very crazy driving in California!

Mercedes Drive Pilot Level 3 ADAS Approved For Use In California

Mercedes becomes the first automaker to have an SAE Level 3 conditionally automated driving system approved for use in California in standard production cars.

insideevs.com

 

[Dan D.]

It was approved in California last month, also. Very crazy driving in California!

Mercedes Drive Pilot Level 3 ADAS Approved For Use In California

Mercedes becomes the first automaker to have an SAE Level 3 conditionally automated driving system approved for use in California in standard production cars.

insideevs.com

I'd love to know how a typical CHP officer can tell the difference between an L3 system and everybody else. You'll easily get a ticket if they see you do this:

While Drive Pilot is active, the driver can take their mind off the traffic and focus on certain secondary activities such as reading a book, using their mobile

Maybe there are only a few Mercedes L3 cars, and maybe they have a log of use that is easily accessed. But you are still going to be pulled over for 10 minutes while you explain all of this. Plus when there are more L3 cars of different makes, some of which are using L3 and some of which aren't, I guess we'll see how that gets worked out. Unless you don't mind getting pulled over and trying to explain each time, or if CHP lets people drive distracted who aren't actually using L3. If there is an L3-is-active blue light on the wheel or something that is supposed to be visible from outside the car, what is to stop foolish people from adding this to pretend they are using L3.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'd love to know how a typical CHP officer can tell the difference between an L3 system and everybody else. You'll easily get a ticket if they see you do this:

While Drive Pilot is active, the driver can take their mind off the traffic and focus on certain secondary activities such as reading a book, using their mobile

Maybe there are only a few Mercedes L3 cars, and maybe they have a log of use that is easily accessed. But you are still going to be pulled over for 10 minutes while you explain all of this. Plus when there are more L3 cars of different makes, some of which are using L3 and some of which aren't, I guess we'll see how that gets worked out. Unless you don't mind getting pulled over and trying to explain each time, or if CHP lets people drive distracted who aren't actually using L3. If there is an L3-is-active blue light on the wheel or something that is supposed to be visible from outside the car, what is to stop foolish people from adding this to pretend they are using L3.

You can't legally do that, as such CHP does not have to make the distinction. Currently the Mercedes system (at least as released in US) only allows interaction with the vehicle screen, not with mobile devices.