Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[gearchruncher]

We shall see. From looking around it seems to have a reasonable share of the M3 sales. Not a low volume sports car.

It has this share because it's a couple thousand dollar option on a very high volume car, and it has basically no changes of consequence. It's nothing like an M-Car, AMG, etc. It would not sell like that if it carried M car premiums, and it can't carry M car changes without that kind of price bump. Tesla is highly engineering constrained, and this just isn't where they are spending money right now.

With your logic, all EVs would have a 3 to 4 V system voltage.

No, there is a curve to both voltage and current, and it's optimized at some point. Which Tesla has already done. You don't think they would have gone with higher voltage when the Model 3 came out if it was just as efficient? Higher voltage allows lower charging losses, and we know for a fact the inverter supports it because they use the same inverter in the higher voltage S.

Over these 8 years, PMSynRM geometry has evolved and inverter algoritms and components have evolved. Model S/X has this large voltage differential from battery to motor and doesn't seem to be suffering in efficiency or otherwise. What tradeoffs are you referring to?

The Plaid has lower range than the non-plaid, even with the exact same wheels. But you said just re-winding the motor, not fundamentally changing the architecture.

If P and base already have different trim e.g rear spoiler, suspension and brakes, it doesn't cost much logistically to install different components as long as said components are in mass production.

They took the suspension changes away from the Model 3P about two years ago. Because performance buyers only cared about 0-60 and didn't actually want stiffer suspension. So yeah, a stick on spoiler, and some brake rotors and calipers from an external supplier. Super minimal changes compared to what a real performance version of a car would be like an M car might have with completely different bodywork, seats, transmissions, engines, fuel tanks, etc.

 

[hooty]

Surely the updated M3P would be quicker than the tri-motor Cybertruck.
It’s specs were 2.9sec 0-60

 

[gearchruncher]

It’s specs were 2.9sec 0-60

Oh right, and 500+ miles of range for under $70K, right? I mean, it will totally be faster than a Model S with with way more range for less money. Those specs from 46 months ago are totally still valid.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498981268398161922

Oops.

 

[Destiny1701]

Have to say that if they make Model 3 faster than Model X Plaid it totally wrecks any rationale of buying Model X Plaid 6 seat version. Then I'd just buy a Model 3 Plaid and put a ski box on top for long item transport

That’s funny lol. Not sure how one can compare a large SUV to a small sedan. Totally different use cases. For you maybe that works!

That’s like saying an exotic lambo is faster than it’s suv Urus so I’ll just buy the lambo then. (Most would lol) but if you need space and you like an SUV, you’ll get the latter.

Likewise saying a bmwM3 is faster than an X5M so forget the X?

I think the model X isn’t even a factor in their planning and strategy for the new 3P. Probably moreso it’s direct competition in same category.

 

[hooty]

Oh right, and 500+ miles of range for under $70K, right? I mean, it will totally be faster than a Model S with with way more range for less money. Those specs from 46 months ago are totally still valid.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498981268398161922

Oops.

The difference is testing & application
It’s relatively easy to test acceleration, not so range. Whether they get over 500 miles remains to be seen. Isn’t Rivian over 400?
Also longer range is needed for remote travel with no charging infrastructure ‘nearby’

 

[Tiger]

If this were true, no EV would drop in power at higher speeds.

This also violates physics, since if you boost the voltage at the output but maintain the current, the power goes up. Power must be conserved. Since the voltage at the battery didn't go up, the current must. So the battery will still have a current limit which will come into play.

So VOLTAGE can be changed but not power, good to keep that in mind.

 

[Tiger]

That’s funny lol. Not sure how one can compare a large SUV to a small sedan. Totally different use cases. For you maybe that works!

That’s like saying an exotic lambo is faster than it’s suv Urus so I’ll just buy the lambo then. (Most would lol) but if you need space and you like an SUV, you’ll get the latter.

Likewise saying a bmwM3 is faster than an X5M so forget the X?

I think the model X isn’t even a factor in their planning and strategy for the new 3P. Probably moreso it’s direct competition in same category.

I'm just saying, that I don't know how many beers I would have to drink to convince myself to buy a MX Plaid that is slower than M3Plaid, if the latter is half the price. And like someone said, MSPlaid and M3Plaid have so little difference in useful space for passengers that if M3Plaid was in the same territory, I wouldn't consider MSPlaid either.

I currently have a M3 so I could carry on with Highland car if it was the fastest. The main reasons I am looking to upgrade are I would like quicker and bigger. With half the reasons, meh, steep ask, hell I can get a ID.Buzz then if X is slower.

 

[gearchruncher]

That’s like saying an exotic lambo is faster than it’s suv Urus so I’ll just buy the lambo then. (Most would lol)

Ironically, data shows nobody would buy the sports car over the SUV. Most people don't care about actual performance at all, and companies make bank by having a halo car that nobody buys and selling them the SUV version of the brand name.

The Model Y outsells the Model 3.
The Urus accounts for more than half of Lambo's sales
The Porsche SUV's way outsell the 911 and 718 and moving to SUV's basically saved the company

Nobody that has any interest in an SUV cross shops the performance car from the same brand.

If you'd buy a Model X Plaid as long as no Model 3P was faster, why are you ignoring the Model S Plaid that is cheaper than the X as well as faster?

 

[gearchruncher]

The difference is testing & application
It’s relatively easy to test acceleration, not so range.

Yes, but the only numbers we know for the Cybertruck were numbers made up by Elon on stage because they sounded good to him at that moment.

Tesla can make a CT go 0-60 in 2.0 seconds with some software if they want. It will just beat up batteries, inverters, transmissions, driveshafts, etc.

You know what sets every spec in a car? Warranty. And you know what is the hardest to test for? Reliability.

You know what is SUPER easy to test for? Can a car drive itself without intervention for 1000 miles? Tesla said we'd have that in 2017, and here we are at the end of 2023, nowhere close.

You think basically every single part in the CT hasn't changed since they announced it in 2019, made a single copy, threw a ball at the unbreakable window, and then took 3 more years to make any kind of actual production prototype? We have ZERO idea the specs of the CT that they will actually sell.

 

[Tiger]

If you'd buy a Model X Plaid as long as no Model 3P was faster, why are you ignoring the Model S Plaid that is cheaper than the X as well as faster?

There the performance difference is negligible enough in comparison to what utility you get with the price difference (in the US as of today, price difference is actually zero, so depending which is more important either fractions of a second or interior volume decides).

 

[butterscotch]

I reckon it will use two motors - but they will be more powerful and it will be called a Plaid.
Suspension will be more sport focused and better brakes - for less fade (after spirited driving)
I would like to see the much talked about cold rocket thrusters from the new Roadster make their way onto a Model 3 Plaid!

The fade comes from 1. current M3P uses DOT3 brake fluid. 2. Poor brake pad. 3. non metal brake hose and 4 aero dynamic wheel cover that traps the heat inside the brake system. Easy after market fix but I do hope Tesla addresses this issue. Stock M3P isn't track/spirited driving ready. It's dangerous tbh

 

[butterscotch]

The Electric Viking said there is a rumor the new M3 Performance has been delayed because they are still working on improving the 0 to 60 time.

to be completely honest, I would much prefer they work on keeping the max horsepower band at high speed by giving M3P carbon sleeve motors. I'd rather have a constant 500 HP at high speed than lose 30% of it past 90 mph (and watch ICE cars take over)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Summary:
1) NO battery limitations to improving acceleration from 0-45mph. Just need more current to produce more torque. (Battery supplies much less than peak output over most of this region. See plots.) So this is purely motor limited.
2) Motor limitations at 50mph+, could be improved by enhanced rotor tolerances, up to battery limit.(Carbon sleeve, etc.)

For 1):
It’s not clear to me that a single carbon-sleeve rotor can produce substantially more torque at low speeds than current PM. If it could, it would draw more current and power (which the pack can easily provide of course as we all know). Or does Plaid only do more power at low speeds because it has two of them (for three total)? Anyone know? Certainly that is part of Plaid’s advantage, as was pointed out earlier.

Since inverter is the same in Plaid vs. Model 3, it does suggest similar peak current capability, so unless inverter has a lot of margin, that suggests carbon-sleeve and current motor have similar peak torque, so I think probably they’d have to do dual rear to do better at low speed? (Or a new motor/inverter with higher peak torque.)

They could also improve the peak current of front motor (go to PM ), but not sure how much utility it would have with weight shift to rear. It would perhaps get rid of the infernal “beeping” though, when near coasting.

We’ll see what they actually do but those seem to be the key areas and limitations.

Definitely a lot of low-end and high-end power available from the pack, currently untapped.

 

[gearchruncher]

The fade comes from 1. current M3P uses DOT3 brake fluid. 2. Poor brake pad. 3. non metal brake hose and 4 aero dynamic wheel cover that traps the heat inside the brake system. Easy after market fix but I do hope Tesla addresses this issue.

What aerodynamic wheel covers come on a M3P?

Anyone that tracks ANY car changes fluid every 6 months. Stock fluid is irrelevant to a tracked car.

So are brake pads. They're things you consume in a few days at the track. The stock M3P brake pads are actually excellent, expensive, high quality pads. It's just that they are focused on DOT and EPA legal performance on the street without insane amounts of dust or noise. Ferrado DS1500's are nothing to sneeze at.

Basically no stock cars come with stainless brake lines, and stainless lines conduct MORE heat into the brake system than rubber. Stainless lines do not last as long as rubber ones.

Meanwhile the actual limits to the car on the track are things like heat management of the battery, charging, suspension adjustability, overall mass, etc. And what would be even better than changing the brake system would be enabling 200+kW regen instead of the 70kW we get today. We know the battery can do it because that's what it supercharges at.

But yeah, let's discuss how the brakes on a M3P are "dangerous."

 

[SigNC]

Go read the Model S manual yourself. The gear reduction on a plaid is lower than a base model s or 3.

It runs lower RPM at 200MPH than the other cars do at 160MPH.

7.56 vs 9.04.

the gear reduction is lower, hence the car is geared taller. Exactly my point.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I think the Model 3 brake criticism is largely rooted in the fact that the pedal just feels "different". And experience tells us that if a brake pedal feels soft like a Buick, the brakes must be poorly suited for performance driving.

But the reason it feels different is because it is different. Fossil cars have extremely soft brake pedals at the beginning of travel, typically squishing an inch or so before you even begin to get into medium braking. Whereas Tesla starts right off at medium braking before you even touch the pedal (120kW regen is about 160hp) so that initial slop and softness ends up occurring within the mid-high range which is familiarly disconcerting. Add to this, the inconsistency of regen, inconsistency of the motorized brake booster, and modern caliper piston seals that retract the pads further than older cars did, and you're gonna get a pedal that feels pretty different, and slightly worse.

But this has nothing to do with actual brake performance and no amount of brake hose bling is going to improve it.

 

[gearchruncher]

120kW regen is about 160hp

Where do you get this number? Max regen in a Model 3 is 50kw. About 70 in track mode.

It's limited to 0.3g as well.

Also, lots of performance ICE cars have very stiff, reactive break pedals. The Model 3 is softer than many I have driven but middle of the road. The e booster has nothing to do with this, lots of ICE cars use those now too for ADAS

 

[gearchruncher]

the gear reduction is lower, hence the car is geared taller. Exactly my point.

Yes, but everybody thinks the reason for carbon wrapping is to allow higher RPM operation of the motor. But the motor runs LOWER RPM than the non-carbon wrapped ones. Most people are suprised to hear that, and that the Plaid runs way higher torques, not higher RPM's.

Your rule is only true if you have an engine with a fixed redline that you added HP to, but again most people think they upped the redline on a plaid to hit 200 MPH, and jerks like Elon post crap like this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1404128430585618433

Plaid runs LOWER RPM at 200 MPH than a M3P does at 162 MPH. Elon's full of it as usual, just saying whatever sounds technically smart and superior even if it's false.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Where do you get this number? Max regen in a Model 3 is 50kw. About 70 in track mode.

It's limited to 0.3g as well.

Also, lots of performance ICE cars have very stiff, reactive break pedals. The Model 3 is softer than many I have driven but middle of the road. The e booster has nothing to do with this, lots of ICE cars use those now too for ADAS

Looks like it's more like 75kW. Possibly 85kW, based on SMT - not clear what the discrepancy there is between Model 3 and Model Y in this plot.

https://imgur.com/CKIfCR4

Source for both of these claims:

Increased Regen starting with Software Build v10.2 2021.4.11

Has anyone seen an improvement with regen with 2021.4.11? I went out today with the temperature at around 29F and I had full regen (no"dots" on the line), even after spending an hour at store. Felt like summer was already here 😁. To be clear I did not charge the car prior to my trip nor did I...

www.teslaownersonline.com

 

[rotarypower101]

And what would be even better than changing the brake system would be enabling 200+kW regen instead of the 70kW we get today. We know the battery can do it because that's what it supercharges at.

Just curious if this linked threads comment is accurate, or possibly if the number quoted above is a result of further changes to the current performance model , better testing/measurement methodology, or possibly a sustained rate VS Peak regen being referenced? Or possible some other factor? New to this platform, interested in the topic and learning...

>85kw street, 120kw track mode.

Should track mode 100% regen be stronger than normal driving?

Should the 100% regen setting in track mode be stronger than normal driving regen? October 2021 build M3P, if that matters. I briefly tried track mode for the first time. 100% regen felt about the same as the car's normal regen to me. I thought I read somewhere that 100% regen in track mode...

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