Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[Apprunner]

Back when the M3P was released Elon famously proclaimed it was an M3 killer. They don't have a M division but they succeeded in building a pretty freaking good performance sedan. And track mode is silly good. I don't know whether Tesla wants to compete in this space anymore and I guess that's what we need to see. They may leave performance EVs to the Germans.

Elon loves the competition and the Germans haven’t exactly brung it from a power perspective.

I think they tweak the M3P enough to get it in high 10s quarter mile and charge $5k more and call it a day. That would be good enough for me to upgrade when my current car gets to 6-7 years.

 

[gearchruncher]

The new Model 3 Performance should be quicker than the latest BMW M3 and MB C63 AMG, which are the new straight-line performance bogeys in the category:

Elon loves the competition and the Germans haven’t exactly brung it from a power perspective.

I'm so confused. Half the people are saying that the Germans are killing it with 2.8 second cars and Tesla has fallen behind, while others are complaining that the Germans aren't keeping up, which is why Tesla will come out with an even faster car.

Back when the M3P was released Elon famously proclaimed it was an M3 killer.

Funny, I can't find Elon's "famous" statement that it would be an M3 killer, but I can find him telling us there would be ludicrous mode.

https://twitter.com/x/status/726193725131640832

I mean the simple reality is that if Elon said it, it's pretty unlikely to happen.

 

[jose3030]

Did massive cybersleuthing. They will have existing front motor on the 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Then the rear motor will be the FRONT motor from the plaid. This will end up making about 634 hp and bring 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.5-2.6 and quarter mile at 10.6-10.9 range. It will fit and the front motor from Plaid is still 'standard' size motor. Tesla is known to reuse motors but have NEVER used anything other than the 3D3 motor up front for Model 3 or Y. I don't think this changes now. However, the 5D1 basically makes 2x the hp/kw that the front does. Guess what other car has 2x the hp/kw than the front? The Plaid.

 

[SteveM3Perf]

Hi,
What has not really been mentioned is the fact that the latest pre-Highland Model 3 Performance (like our 2023 Shanghai built one) is supposed to have the same motors as the Model Y Perfomance - which have about 20hp more than those fitted on the launch year & pre-facelift cars.
I have therefore not really noticed a drop off in hard acceleration or any problems with 30-70 overtake speeds on our car.
Most drag races on YouTube have been with earlier model years that have less power output.
If the Highland Model 3 Performance is even faster than mine - then I would seriously consider upgrading!
Cheers
Steve

 

[kpanda17]

Did massive cybersleuthing. They will have existing front motor on the 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Then the rear motor will be the FRONT motor from the plaid. This will end up making about 634 hp and bring 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.5-2.6 and quarter mile at 10.6-10.9 range. It will fit and the front motor from Plaid is still 'standard' size motor. Tesla is known to reuse motors but have NEVER used anything other than the 3D3 motor up front for Model 3 or Y. I don't think this changes now. However, the 5D1 basically makes 2x the hp/kw that the front does. Guess what other car has 2x the hp/kw than the front? The Plaid.

This will be fun to silence the competition
Like the battles we are seeing
MS vs Porsche Taycan
MYP vs Durango Hellcat
M3P vs Ioniq N? Bring it on

 

[Apprunner]

I'm so confused. Half the people are saying that the Germans are killing it with 2.8 second cars and Tesla has fallen behind, while others are complaining that the Germans aren't keeping up, which is why Tesla will come out with an even faster car.

Last I checked, the Plaid is cheaper than a loaded M3 and would put a train length on it in a quarter. Still waiting for Germany to respond. Plaids not exactly new.

 

[Olle]

Did massive cybersleuthing. They will have existing front motor on the 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Then the rear motor will be the FRONT motor from the plaid. This will end up making about 634 hp and bring 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.5-2.6 and quarter mile at 10.6-10.9 range. It will fit and the front motor from Plaid is still 'standard' size motor. Tesla is known to reuse motors but have NEVER used anything other than the 3D3 motor up front for Model 3 or Y. I don't think this changes now. However, the 5D1 basically makes 2x the hp/kw that the front does. Guess what other car has 2x the hp/kw than the front? The Plaid.

Source?

 

[gearchruncher]

Last I checked, the Plaid is cheaper than a loaded M3 and would put a train length on it in a quarter. Still waiting for Germany to respond. Plaids not exactly new.

Ahh yes, because famously the German sedans are focused on drag racing. (and why are you comparing a loaded M3 to a base plaid's pricing as of 3 weeks ago?)

Have you visited a place like Reddit where they discuss racing cars like r/cartrackdays? You get threads like this, where people endlessly hate on Teslas and EV's in general:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarTrackDays/comments/16oiplp

And they're not completely wrong- EV's have an endurance problem on tracks. They're amazing time attack cars, but not so much if you want to spend a lot of time out there, and the charging infrastructure at tracks is abysmal. They're less correct about weight and steering feel, but it's a valid concern and not moving in the right direction as an industry. These people hang out at speeds where the AWD nature of cars isn't particularly relevant, and the fact that a Plaid can set great lap times because it can shoot between corners quickly isn't all that interesting.

If you get out of your EV drag racing bubble, a lot of enthusiasts are interested in the noise, the shifting, the massive cornering ability, and the light weight of ICE cars. It's not all about some stat on a page. Given how many M cars BMW sells, I don't think they're hurting right now, or particularly worried about the M3P or Plaid eating into M4 CSL sales. Nor is Chevy worried that their $70K 2.9 second RWD Corvette is about to be overshadowed by a 2.8 second M3P or even a 2.0 second 4 door luxobarge.

That said, a quicker M3P would still do great things to help enthusiasts slowly change their minds to what is clearly the EV future for passenger cars.

 

[kpanda17]

And the F1 CEO also ruins any chance
Creating anti EV racing sentiment
F1 CEO vows there will never be an electric car on the grid

 

[gearchruncher]

Did massive cybersleuthing. They will have existing front motor on the 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Then the rear motor will be the FRONT motor from the plaid. This will end up making about 634 hp and bring 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.5-2.6 and quarter mile at 10.6-10.9 range. It will fit and the front motor from Plaid is still 'standard' size motor. Tesla is known to reuse motors but have NEVER used anything other than the 3D3 motor up front for Model 3 or Y. I don't think this changes now. However, the 5D1 basically makes 2x the hp/kw that the front does. Guess what other car has 2x the hp/kw than the front? The Plaid.

Man, this is just below the kid that turns in their homework with all the sources being "wikipedia." You found all this on the internet from trustworthy sources but couldn't be bothered to post a single link?

So if you search 5D1 on the internet, you find stuff like this:

Refreshed Tesla Model 3 Performance Appears in Certification Documents With Upgraded Motor

Certification documents in Europe list the refreshed Model 3 Performance with a new electric motor, hinting at upgraded performance for the sportiest Highland

www.autoevolution.com

Instead of the 3D3/3D7 combo of the Long Range variant, the Model 3 Performance will come with 3D3/5D1 motors. Although we don't know what the new 5D1 motor brings, people speculate that this will have a carbon sleeve rotor for increased performance.

Which tells us two things. No, the front motor did not change, it's the same 3D3 as in the current car, just like Tesla has been saying. And nobody knows what a 5D1 is. Except that the German documents list the front as the same in the performance variant but the rear as "800A" vs "600A":

[Wiki] Model 3 / Model Y - Technische Veränderungen

Update Beitrag 1 → Release M3H! Model Y → New rear brake calipers. Model 3 Highland! 8mm wider track on front and rear axle. VIN Decoder lists „T“ for Performance dual motor. No speed limit info for M3P 2024 yet. New steering ratio: lock to lock is now 2.13 rotations (used to be 2.03). New...

tff-forum.de

Ok, so 800A at 320V is 256kW, which is 343HP in the rear motor. Better than the current 202kW, but not a huge upgrade. And since we know the 3D3 is 183 HP per Tesla's own specs, there is no way this is a 634HP car, much less one that can sustain that at higher speeds. What's interesting about 800A rear and 400A front is that is 1200A, which is exactly what the old battery pack had as the max discharge limit before it blows the fuse. So for a car to get more power than this, they need to change the battery in some way. (634HP at 320V is 1500A). The best we can hope for is that the car can do 500HP and sustain that into 100 MPH (which would be amazing of course).

FYI, 600A @ 320V is 192kW, dead on for Tesla's own specs of 194kW for the 3D7 motor.

So, post up your sources that refute this.

 

[Apprunner]

Ahh yes, because famously the German sedans are focused on drag racing. (and why are you comparing a loaded M3 to a base plaid's pricing as of 3 weeks ago?)

Have you visited a place like Reddit where they discuss racing cars like r/cartrackdays? You get threads like this, where people endlessly hate on Teslas and EV's in general:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarTrackDays/comments/16oiplp

And they're not completely wrong- EV's have an endurance problem on tracks. They're amazing time attack cars, but not so much if you want to spend a lot of time out there, and the charging infrastructure at tracks is abysmal. They're less correct about weight and steering feel, but it's a valid concern and not moving in the right direction as an industry. These people hang out at speeds where the AWD nature of cars isn't particularly relevant, and the fact that a Plaid can set great lap times because it can shoot between corners quickly isn't all that interesting.

If you get out of your EV drag racing bubble, a lot of enthusiasts are interested in the noise, the shifting, the massive cornering ability, and the light weight of ICE cars. It's not all about some stat on a page. Given how many M cars BMW sells, I don't think they're hurting right now, or particularly worried about the M3P or Plaid eating into M4 CSL sales. Nor is Chevy worried that their $70K 2.9 second RWD Corvette is about to be overshadowed by a 2.8 second M3P or even a 2.0 second 4 door luxobarge.

That said, a quicker M3P would still do great things to help enthusiasts slowly change their minds to what is clearly the EV future for passenger cars.

Not really concerned about the super niche people that want the track focused car from an OEM. I keep hearing about this mythical German car that will supposedly put the Tesla in its place whenever some German OEM wants to bring it out. I just want a road car with a ton of power for cheap with decent handling (like the M3P). I think they tend to sell better than track focused cars because people just want to have a bit of fun with power vs. taking each corner without slowing.

Frankly, if I wanted a track car, I'd get a Miata with cheap consumables that I can beat on all day at the track. Seems way more fun than beating on an M3 CSL and then having to replace tires and brakes on the thing (so damn expensive).

 

[gearchruncher]

I just want a road car with a ton of power for cheap with decent handling (like the M3P)

Cool, so you're a Tesla customer, not a BMW customer. And Tesla has already sold you the best car on the market in this use case, and even has a Halo car for you (the plaid) that is less than BMW's that hardly outperform an M3P in a straight line.

So why do you think Tesla needs to make a "faster" car, or why are you waiting for Germany to respond with a cheaper, faster straight line car when that's not their market niche? They tend to focus on the whole car, with great suspensions, brakes, and lap times.

I get we all want these things, but that doesn't make them good business cases for Tesla to go rip up the Model 3 production line to give us a more capable battery or motor.

Frankly, if I wanted a track car, I'd get a Miata with cheap consumables that I can beat on all day at the track.

Ahh yes, On the road you want the fastest thing out there and are willing to pay a premium for it, despite 90% of that performance being illegal to access on the roads. But someone that wants a fast car on a track is just silly and should drive a miata. That's some weird goalpost shifting.

 

[Apprunner]

Cool, so you're a Tesla customer, not a BMW customer. And Tesla has already sold you the best car on the market in this use case, and even has a Halo car for you (the plaid).
So why do you think Tesla needs to make a "faster" car, or why are you waiting for Germany to respond with a cheaper, faster straight line car when that's not their market niche? They tend to focus on the whole car, with great suspensions, brakes, and lap times.
I get we all want these things, but that doesn't make them good business cases.


Ahh yes, On the road you want the fastest thing out there and are willing to pay a premium for it, despite 90% of that performance being illegal to access on the roads. But someone that wants a fast car on a track is just silly and should drive a miata. That's some weird goalpost shifting.

I just want a faster M3P is all. I think the Model S is just simply too big so want something smaller (and cheaper). I would have considered a M60 i4 but didn't really like the car. If the Germans had something I like, I would have bought it.

Also, never said having more power on the track is silly...you are just projecting now. I said that I would want something cheap that I can beat on all day because I'm too cheap to pay for an M3 CSL and take it to the track.

 

[kpanda17]

Agree, like BMW M3 vs M6, different strokes for different folks

 

[Knightshade]

Funny, I can't find Elon's "famous" statement that it would be an M3 killer

Weird- found it in about 10 seconds

https://twitter.com/x/status/998085655958769665

The Model 3 of course got a bit quicker since then thanks to a couple free power bumps and Tesla using rollout only for P stats

 

[Zcd1]

Weird- found it in about 10 seconds

https://twitter.com/x/status/998085655958769665

The Model 3 of course got a bit quicker since then thanks to a couple free power bumps and Tesla using rollout only for P stats

It's worth remembering that the guy who couldn't find this quote also doesn't consider the M3P to be in the same category as the compact/mid-size German performance sedans....

This despite the fact that from the beginning, those cars were the M3P's target....

And the M3P has always been quicker and cheaper than all of those...until the most recent updates to the BMW M3 and MB C63.

I see no reason that Tesla wouldn't want to maintain that advantage/distinction in the new M3P...

 

[Knightshade]

Wait when we say the german M3 is ahead now are we talking about this thing?

BMW M3 Competition xDrive Delivers Supercar Performance

Outrageous. Ballistic. Quick. BMW's all-wheel-drive M3 Competition lives in another world.

www.caranddriver.com

Because while it does do 2.8 0-60, its starting at almost $84,000 and optioned gets near to 100k. A new 0-60 in 1.9 Plaid is 86k.

The Model 3 P is net of tax credit 45k... nearly half the price (or less if your state also does tax credits)

 

[GreenHokie]

A new 0-60 in 1.9 Plaid is 86k.

Agree with your points, but just a clarification/correction:
The MS Plaid is definitely not $86K. The purchase price currently on Tesla’s website is $90K.
The $86K you mentioned is the price that Tesla calculates as the “probable” price after 3 years of ownership with potential gas savings.
A little trickery by Tesla to make the price appear a little more attractive to new/prospective buyers.

 

[Zcd1]

Wait when we say the german M3 is ahead now are we talking about this thing?

BMW M3 Competition xDrive Delivers Supercar Performance

Outrageous. Ballistic. Quick. BMW's all-wheel-drive M3 Competition lives in another world.

www.caranddriver.com

Because while it does do 2.8 0-60, its starting at almost $84,000 and optioned gets near to 100k. A new 0-60 in 1.9 Plaid is 86k.

The Model 3 P is net of tax credit 45k... nearly half the price (or less if your state also does tax credits)

The Model 3P has always had a price advantage over its competitors. Tesla's relative efficiency as a manufacturer has allowed it to increase that advantage substantially of late.

The Plaid is cool and obviously stupid quick/fast, but isn't the same type of vehicle at all as a compact sports sedan like an M3 Competition or a Model 3 Performance.

 

[Knightshade]

The MS Plaid is definitely not $86K. The purchase price currently on Tesla’s website is $90K.

Sorry, yeah the "potential savings" price was 86k, which tesla keeps setting to the default, which remains deceptive AF.

Still... 90k is a LOT nearer the BMW price of 86k to start and nearly 100k fully optioned than the BMW price is to the 45k after credit Model 3 Performance so I feel like the general point remains?

Elons tweet back in the day was how the Model 3 is quicker AND 15% cheaper.

Now it's 10% slower but almost 50 percent cheaper so not really sure those are competitors anymore unless you ignore everything but physical size of the vehicle.