Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[gearchruncher]

It's worth remembering that the guy who couldn't find this quote also doesn't consider the M3P to be in the same category as the compact/mid-size German performance sedans....

What pointed out was that now that an M3 is $85-$130K, and the M3P is $47K, they don't really overlap in people cross shopping them. Tesla has moved downmarket since 2018 and BMW M's have moved upmarket. Are we saying "class" of car completely ignores pricing? If so, then a Civic Type R is in the same class, and it's faster at the Nurburgring than a Model 3... And the G80 BMW M3 is WAY faster.

But I also don't think a $100K BMW M3 competes with a $45K 330i in the real world economy either, despite BMW literally giving them the same series name and listing them as the same car series on their website.

It's also hard to find a "M3 killer" quote when what was said was "Will beat anything in its class on the track." Which is double ironic given lap times are supposedly irrelevant, only street drag racing matters according to this thread, and we know any Elon statement like that is hyperbole. Are we saying that if you have a faster lap time, your whole car model has been killed? So the M3P has been killed by the BMW M3? Oh yeah, but the " the Germans haven’t exactly brung it from a power perspective." is also true!?

Anyway, we're a bit off topic here. The question is if the "Highland" M3P will be faster than the current one, and in what ways. Nothing I see has any evidence it will be that much faster, and I don't think Tesla cares too much about beating a $100K M3 in a straight line with a Model 3 when the Plaid already does it, and their goal is to move 1,000,000 Model 3's a year vs 25K BMW M cars. Tesla needs to make money, and the current M3P performance is already succeeding at that. I hope I'm wrong though, and I hope others can post some evidence that goes beyond "it HAS to keep up with $100K BMWs, Elon said so in 2018."

I find it interesting that nobody has refuted the German docs that list an identical front motor as now and only a bit more power from the rear, and no battery changes. The car can be meaningfully faster with a 800A rear motor that can sustain that to 100 MPH, but I'm not sure that would get us to G80 M3 CSL territory and make the car a clear performance king in 2024. Who's done the math?

 

[Knightshade]

I find it interesting that nobody has refuted the German docs that list an identical front motor as now and only a bit more power from the rear

You consider over 72 more hp (using your own figures) as "only a bit" more? That's a 15% bump from the 453 you previously cited for the existing car.

 

[Apprunner]

You consider over 72 more hp (using your own figures) as "only a bit" more? That's a 15% bump from the 453 you previously cited for the existing car.

Also, interested in the power curve itself. If the power can be retained from 60-140 mph better than the current car, that’s a big win in my book.

 

[Zcd1]

A BMW 3-series isn't the same class/category as a 5-series, even if one can be optioned up to overlap the other in pricing. They're quite different in size and weight.

The Plaid is a large sedan.

The Model 3 is a compact/midsize sedan, as is a BMW 3-series or M3.

 

[gearchruncher]

They're quite different in size and weight.

You've tripped the EV hater's trump card. Weight.
My M3P weighs more than my BMW E60 M5, and basically the same as a current 5 series.

If it's about dimensions and the interior space, then a Honda Civic is in the same class, right? A Tesla M3 is closer to a Civic in dimensions than to a BMW M3. Or does a Civic not weigh enough to be in the same class? Or maybe it's too cheap?

But again, we're off on classing. What evidence do we have that the Highland M3P will be as faster than a BMW M3 on a track (what Elon said) except us wishing it to be true?

The best thing we have going is that they have lowered the Plaid prices, so now it's not such a big deal to allow the Model 3 into the 2 second club. But this is 0-60 and doesn't require the power band to have more legs beyond that.

 

[Zcd1]

You've tripped the EV hater's trump card. Weight.
My M3P weighs more than my BMW E60 M5, and basically the same as a current 5 series.

In reality, the M3P weighs less than 100 lbs. more than a BMW M3 Competition X-drive, and is almost exactly the same overall size:

Compare Cars Side-by-Side - Car Comparison Tool | Edmunds

What does an E50 M5 have to do with anything??

You know NOTHING about what the next M3P will be, just like the rest of us.

I expect that Tesla will keep it in the same place performance-wise as it has always been with regards to its actual competition.

You expect that they won't, because "reasons". That's cool.

We'll see when it's finally released.

 

[gearchruncher]

You know NOTHING about what the next M3P will be, just like the rest of us.

Which is why I keep pointing us back to the specs we have seen published. Dual motor, same front motor as today, different "800A" rear motor, same battery. It's hard to see how these specs will lead to some 0-130MPH monster.

And I'm arguing that a small bump makes a lot more sense for Tesla's business goals and structure than some sort of very special car with a lot of custom parts like an M car, especially as they already have their Halo car, and they need to leave some room for the Roadster to be a performance king. But that is a guess as much as others for sure, and one I hope I'm wrong about.

 

[Lets go Plaid]

I think with a modest increase in power and a change in gearing we can expect a 0 to 60 in the high 2's, I think this is realistic and doesn't encroach on their flagship offering. Unless you're in Germany using the Autobahns, a higher top speed is pointless.

 

[gearchruncher]

I think with a modest increase in power and a change in gearing we can expect a 0 to 60 in the high 2's

Gearing doesn't do the same thing on single speed EV's as multi gear ICE .
The M3P already starts to drop HP at about 45 MPH. If you lower the gearing to get more torque, it the falls off at earlier speeds and faster.
Raise the gearing, and you drop wheel torque since the motor itself is torque limited.
The only time Tesla has changed gear ratios is on the plaid when they needed much higher top speeds, but were able to match it with a much higher torque motor. (that higher torque motor is actually two motors...)

 

[SteveM3Perf]

Hi,
What everybody is forgetting when they are comparing the 0-60 time of a Tesla vs a BMW M3 or Mercedes C63S is that for both these ICE cars to achieve their great figures - you need to use their launch control.
You are waiting at the lights in your Tesla - they can stay red for any length of time - they go green and you hit the fast pedal and you are off!
By contrast - you are in your BMW (or Mercedes) at the red light - are you in sport mode, is stop/start mode switched off, is engine up to temperature, is traction control turned off?
OK- all this done - push left foot hard on the brake pedal, now push fully on the accelerator pedal - “Launch Mode” showing on the dash - revs are at 3000rpm - you now have just a few seconds for the lights to turn green, otherwise car will drop out of launch mode!
Do launch mode a few times in your BMW and then car needs to cool down before you can do it again!
The difference between a Launch mode start and a standard start in a BMW (even in full sport mode) is enormous!
A Tesla can repeatedly launch quickly - only the state of battery charge will make any noticeable difference to the acceleration figures.
Everybody criticizes Tesla for quoting 0-60 times with a 1-foot roll out - but they conveniently forget to mention that most performance ICE manufacturers performance figures are based on using a fiddly to use (and engine/transmission straining) launch control mode!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Candleflame]

A BMW 3-series isn't the same class/category as a 5-series, even if one can be optioned up to overlap the other in pricing. They're quite different in size and weight.

The Plaid is a large sedan.

The Model 3 is a compact/midsize sedan, as is a BMW 3-series or M3.

not sure how much bigger the highland model 3 is but the 3 series has grown so much in size in the last 10 years that a model 3 is really more equivalent to a 2 series... The Model 3 does pull it back a bit with the large EV wheelbase and short snout but it really is a smaller car now.

 

[Candleflame]

I think with a modest increase in power and a change in gearing we can expect a 0 to 60 in the high 2's, I think this is realistic and doesn't encroach on their flagship offering. Unless you're in Germany using the Autobahns, a higher top speed is pointless.

Even on the Autobahn paradoxically acceleration at high speed and higher top speed isnt as useful as you think compared to let's say an australian motorway.

In Australia theres lots of lane hoggers and highway warriors blocking the overtaking lanes so quick acceleration back to your original speed is kinda useful. I.e. you have to slow down from 140 to 100 for a right lane hogger on a motorway and you dont want to undertake because too unsafe ; you have to wait for them to move over and then you have to accelerate back up - which noone wants to do a in a little 1.4L car with a manual transmission and 130 horsepower.

In germany that doesnt happen - you can kinda hold the speed much better and longer - which is probably why many germans dont care at all about horsepower as long as topspeed is reasonable i.e. 200-250km/h which any car with >150hp can reach. Even if you like to drive fast. Yes, more power is nicer but not essential. In Australia I think it'd drive me nuts having to downshift and re-accelerate all the time in a small(er) engined manual car.

Higher topspeed than 200-250 isnt really that useful either because its very rare that you could/can do a sustained run at higher speeds. Traffic is too bad in Germany and anything above 220km/h is becoming mentally VERY taxing and isnt something you can comfortably cruise at (the road kinda narrows in front of you and you never know whether someone is going to pull out in front of you)

 

[golfcart]

I think the P3D Highland needs to step it up to not be outdone by Hyundai/Kia. The Ioniq 5 N looks like a solid competitor at a similar (slightly higher) price point. Likely comparable in a straight line and faster on a track than the current P3D with a lot of bells and whistles that the Tesla doesn't have.

2025 IONIQ 5 N | High Performance Electric SUV | Hyundai USA

N has gone electric with the 2025 IONIQ 5 N high performance SUV. Over 600 hp and track ready features make it the most powerful Hyundai ever! Learn more.

www.hyundaiusa.com

 

[Candleflame]

I think the P3D Highland needs to step it up to not be outdone by Hyundai/Kia. The Ioniq 5 N looks like a solid competitor at a similar (slightly higher) price point. Likely comparable in a straight line and faster on a track than the current P3D with a lot of bells and whistles that the Tesla doesn't have.

2025 IONIQ 5 N | High Performance Electric SUV | Hyundai USA

N has gone electric with the 2025 IONIQ 5 N high performance SUV. Over 600 hp and track ready features make it the most powerful Hyundai ever! Learn more.

www.hyundaiusa.com

its an suv so handles like garbage and its infotainment is unusable. its not a competitor.

 

[Zcd1]

not sure how much bigger the highland model 3 is but the 3 series has grown so much in size in the last 10 years that a model 3 is really more equivalent to a 2 series... The Model 3 does pull it back a bit with the large EV wheelbase and short snout but it really is a smaller car now.

Here’s the same comparison I referenced earlier, adding the 2–series:

Compare Cars Side-by-Side - Car Comparison Tool | Edmunds

The Model 3 is almost exactly the same overall size as the M3, bigger in every dimension than the 2 series and has more interior and cargo space than either.

 

[Zcd1]

its an suv so handles like garbage and its infotainment is unusable. its not a competitor.

This quote shows that you either haven’t been paying any attention to the reports about Ioniq5N or you’re trolling…

 

[Candleflame]

Here’s the same comparison I referenced earlier, adding the 2–series:

Compare Cars Side-by-Side - Car Comparison Tool | Edmunds

The Model 3 is almost exactly the same overall size as the M3, bigger in every dimension than the 2 series and has more interior and cargo space than either.

The 3 saves itself due to being an EV. The 3 series is like 10 cm longer than the 3. thats quite a bit.

 

[Candleflame]

This quote shows that you either haven’t been paying any attention to the reports about Ioniq5N or you’re trolling…

oh i thought ioniq5. but the N is a hatchback so not really a compact sedan. and the infotainment issue with hyundai remains. its essentially unusable.

 

[Zcd1]

...and the infotainment issue with hyundai remains. its essentially unusable.

We also own a Genesis GV60 Performance and its infotainment is anything but unusable.

It has both advantages and disadvantages compared to Tesla’s UI.

 

[Zcd1]

The 3 saves itself due to being an EV. The 3 series is like 10 cm longer than the 3. thats quite a bit.

The Model 3 is a couple of centimeters wider and taller than the M3, so overall almost exactly the same size.

It’s also about 15 cm longer than the 2-series - “that’s quite a bit”.