The Panasonic battery is the best battery put in a 3 or Y. It is also the limiting factor in total output as it drops off with state of charge. It is also thermally limited out on a track. Peak power is not limited by the motors and the battery is already at it's (very high) limit. They might be able to squeeze a flatter curve out of the "new" motors.
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Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]
- Thread starter Daniel L
- Start date
Maybe but point is that the pack is already slowing down newer China made cars with the LG pack. If they want to advertise the car as being more powerful, they need a more powerful pack for China made cars also. I believe the LG pack has less degregation and works better in colder climates but might be wrong on that.
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I believe the Hyundai Ioniq 5N will be closer to 4,900 lbs when they officially release the specs for it.
The Ioniq 5N has an 84 kWh battery pack and its motors produce 235 and 406 HP. Technically the 5N produces more HP in the rear motor than a single Plaid motor does with only an 84 kWh battery.
If you simply put the 5N battery and powertrain in a Model 3 that weighs 900 lbs less than a 5N you would be DEEP into the 10s. I predict that is what Tesla will essentially do.
They will put modern battery and motor technology in a dual motor Model 3 with wider rear tires and a better(perhaps adjustable) suspension.
Man I didn't realize how terrible the MPGe is on the Ioniq 5N
The Panasonic has still a little headroom as BMS peak power is 460kW, but Tesla limits it to about 435kW. This is done by reducing max amps when the cell temperature goes above 28°C.
Interesting. I have seen the battery report a max discharge value of 462 KW with a 48 degree C battery mid pack.
My quickest runs were with ~99% SOC, 48+ degree C battery, and a Max Discharge Value of 459+ KW.
28C battery would be really slow especially above ~55 mph.
Power still increases with cell temperature up to peak power over 50°C, but while power goes up with temp, you can spot the max current being lowered. If that wasn't happening you could actually achieve 462kW true bat discharge power.
The interesting thing about that graph is that it appears to only apply to maximum discharge value. That typically occurs at about 55 mph for power. However, temperature really affects power as it drops off after 55 mph.
We may lose a few KW at 55 mph but heating the battery keeps power higher as it drops off after 55 mph.
For 0-60 mph this chart may get you the best times but for the 1/4 mile this chart would really hurt your times.
The graph below shows how big a difference heating the battery makes after the peak power.
I mostly hope they work on cooling more than performance. No point making 650HP if the car goes into limp(battery overtemp protection) mode after 3min of use like current one and Plaid...
Hyundai is way ahead on that regard, not even comparable.
Hyundai is way ahead on that regard, not even comparable.
The chart doesn't claim that peak power is reached at 28°C. Maximum Power overall needs 100% and 50°C+.
It merely indicates that expected BMS max power and actual battery max power is matched the last time at 28°C cell temp. As you point out it is around 1300A and somewhere around 55mph / 88kph at high SOC and dropping afterwards. With lower SOC the peak power is also at lower speeds and high speed power is highly altered by cell temp (and SOC).
From the same metadata of five cars (M3P 2021/2022 82kWh) over several years I could also produce a speed vs. power vs. soc vs. temp chart.
In case you haven't seen that one:
The 5D1 Plaid would mostly have pro arguments with maintaining high speed power being the most important one. The 5D1 is a modified 3D1 motor, which is the one from the 2018 M3P with good ol' wire windings. So not a modern motor and maybe not the most efficient choice.
The 4D1 is the latest generation of Tesla motors and it is a completely new design with hairpin stator. I seems to hold up power with speed similar to the older 3D6 motor, while not being as efficient, which is strange. In WLTP testing it performed up to 4% worse meaning it had up to 4% higher consumption / less range than the older 3D6 motor.
The main arguments pro 4D1 are not on the customer side, but for Tesla. Less to no rare earth in the motor and cheap to produce, were the 5D1 is an expensive premium motor in comparison with its carbon sleeved rotor.
In the past Tesla was always looking to have simple production with unified parts. This would point towards the 4D1 which is already used in every version of the Model Y. By just adjusting the inverter limits you get a performance motor that will look like a solid step up from the old motor/car and hopefully not only on paper.
Hard to tell now as the 4D1 is currently only paired with the old battery packs and therefore can't show its true limits.
At least here in Germany on unrestricted Autobahn I am not able to heat up the motors in any meaningful way. What I can do is stress the brakes to their limits easily and the main issue with battery overheating on the Nordschleife is the Regen Setting in Track Mode. Stronger brakes would mean you can reduce regen and then see the battery perform longer. Though, there are German Youtube Channels who do M3P track driving with completely stock cars and they manage to do one round on the Nordschleife without reaching the battery limit or only just before finishing the lap. So even the old cars are not that bad IMO.
The Refresh 2021-2024 Model S LR has 3D1 in the back and 3D8 in the front. The 3D8 is a bit of a mystery, but from all I can see it is a slightly modified 3D1.
If you look closely they appear to be plastic and can be removed.
