Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[Mash]

So just checked Bjorn's videos where he did launches of the Performance and he's getting to 400KW roughly on pull from the battery and the LG pack is rated 415KW max discharge. Probably with some losses and so on, that feels like the Model 3 Performance was maxing out the battery pack already. Hence why I think a small improvement at low speeds will be due to motor changes and wheels to get the 0-60 down. They've changed where the motor tops out so that also will help hopefully with mid speed pull.

Ultimately though a car that will be a bit quicker than the last Model 3 Performance, not next level amazingly quicker. If Tesla's view is sub 3 seconds gets you to Ludicrous levels then the last car was almost there already. It only needs a slight nudge to get it over the line.

I hope to be wrong and pleasantly surprised but I think a lot of you are overhyping this and setting yourselves up to be massively disappointed.

Touching power limiter at a single point in time is not what makes 0-60 or 1/4.

With motors and ECU program change you can get way more power around that single peak power point. Just look at the chart of how much space from the power limiter available everywhere except a single dot.

 

[Mash]

Man all this free speculation is so tiresome. Wouldn't it spare everyone alot of time if we all just Shut Up and wait for the actual reveal and reviews? "I think it.s gonna be 2.6...no..2.9...no...2.7..". It's like kindergarden in here.

Wonderful fun police.

 

[Mash]

I think one of the nice things on the LR and yes its slower but because it's not quite tapping out everything possible from the battery that it keeps that performance almost all the time regardless of if the battery is a lower SOC or maybe a bit colder. It's predictable performance.

Also that lower load on the battery helps keep their degradation down. Think over a 4 or maybe it's 5 year period the Performance is almost doubling the degradation of the Long Range. Might be wrong though as these are stats from my head and not sure where I saw it to validate it.

Chill Mode also keeps battery intact and works predictably bad at any soc or temp.

 

[terranx]

Maybe its a later version with better pads and fixed abs program. Anyway, they still feel terrible and overheat easily.

Weight doesn't influence braking distance as long as brakes and tires are not overheating.

Also, better brakes dont stop car any faster than any other functional brakes. They might have a better feel, longevity, outlook, but any stock brakes can lock any tires, so braking is defined by the tires (and abs program)

That testing was in a 2021 (ie near launch)

You need to show your citations that weight doesn’t impact braking distance. Because that’s simply a falsehood.

And now you’re moving goal posts. The argument was the Plaid’s brakes suck because the braking distance is poor. Real world data shows it in fact brakes better than most high end sedans. Yes they could be better in terms of fade resistance etc. But that’s not the claim you and all the YouTubers make

 

[Mash]

Not at all. He said that "SOC is largely irrelevant for 0-60 mph until very low SOCs. However, battery and motor temperature are extremely important" and "With a hot battery you will gain about .1 seconds on your 40-60 mph time". His further posts referenced the detrimental effect that cooling the battery has on available power.

A hot battery provides more power from 40-60 mph when the torque is not "artificially limited".

I think you misunderstand basic physics. A motor cannot create power.

Motors are creating mechanical power from electricity and you get much less power from the M3P battery than it can provide.

 

[Apprunner]

Does this to apply to BEVs in general? I don't mean to derail the thread further, but I'm only asking because I always thought 80% soc and keeping it plugged in as often as possible was what I was led to believe was ideal. But for my use case, I can actually keep it to 55% soc on a daily based on my daily commute and then charge at home overnight back to 55. But on Friday evenings, I can charge it to 80% in anticipation of weekend outings.

The 55% strategy is much better for overall longevity. Go read the other thread and you’ll see that people that have employed that strategy for a few years have really good capacity left on battery. 80% isn’t actually that great for long term battery health.

 

[Mash]

That testing was in a 2021 (ie near launch)

You need to show your citations that weight doesn’t impact braking distance. Because that’s simply a falsehood.

And now you’re moving goal posts. The argument was the Plaid’s brakes suck because the braking distance is poor. Real world data shows it in fact brakes better than most high end sedans. Yes they could be better in terms of fade resistance etc. But that’s not the claim you and all the YouTubers make

Plaid brakes were really bad. They stopped the car, but feeling was bad, overheat is bad. Later they improved. Enough? Idk. But my claim is - when brakes work well you dont have 0-60 better than 60-0 ever.

I can't prove something that doesnt exist. It's a made up myth about heavy cars taking longer to stop. On the same tires they are close to identical.

If tires are used within specs and no aero is pushing you down - maximum force before tire slip is proportional to the weight you put on it. And the force that you need to have the same rate of deceleration is also proportional to your weight.

So weight cancels itself in the formula of braking distance calculator. It's just not there.

 

[remulasce]

Tires do not follow the ideal friction force formula. Applying 2x the load (weight) to rubber results in less than 2x the friction. So weight does matter when comparing dissimilar vehicles, just not necessarily more than tire compound, ABS programming, etc.

 

[Sweed269]

The increase in weight to coefficient of friction of a tire is not proportional. Lighter is better.

 

[Dallas J]

Or wider is better. Its the 2nd order effect physics ignores cause it makes the math easier and is appropriate for most things.

 

[whoosierdaddy]

lmao at all the people predicting release on a Saturday (4/20), it ain't gonna happen then

 

[Adam3]

lmao at all the people predicting release on a Saturday (4/20), it ain't gonna happen then

 

[Mash]

The increase in weight to coefficient of friction of a tire is not proportional. Lighter is better.

That's not how pressure is calculated. And it's not how tire contact patch works. Also, not how coefficient works.

Lighter doesn't stop better not in theory, not in practice. Lighter turns and rotates faster. Lighter gains speed faster. Lighter is good. But stops the same.

Heavier cars have larger contact patch area. So on the same compound it's designed to have an optimal pressure between road and tire. Which ends up as the same breaking distance.

 

[Sweed269]

That's not how pressure is calculated. And it's not how tire contact patch works. Also, not how coefficient works.

Lighter doesn't stop better not in theory, not in practice. Lighter turns and rotates faster. Lighter gains speed faster. Lighter is good. But stops the same.

Heavier cars have larger contact patch area. So on the same compound it's designed to have an optimal pressure between road and tire. Which ends up as the same breaking distance.

Not if you lower the pressure and keep the same contact patch. Less weight requires less tire pressure.
If you add weight to a car it will take more distance to stop. It's not a big difference in a single stop that doesn't exceed the thermal limits of the brakes. But there is a different.

 

[CKwik240]

That's not how pressure is calculated. And it's not how tire contact patch works. Also, not how coefficient works.

Lighter doesn't stop better not in theory, not in practice. Lighter turns and rotates faster. Lighter gains speed faster. Lighter is good. But stops the same.

Heavier cars have larger contact patch area. So on the same compound it's designed to have an optimal pressure between road and tire. Which ends up as the same breaking distance.

"Then there is the vertical load on the tire, which is crucial to understand, but also the most misunderstood element of tire traction. Traction increases as the vertical load on the tire increases. But it is very important to understand that the relationship between vertical load and traction is not linear. Being nonlinear means that if the load on the tire is increased, while the traction also increases, it does not increase as much as the load. This is a good time to more clearly explain traction in terms of pounds of force and vertical load on a tire."

Weight Watching - Understanding Weight Transfer and Racecar Dynamics - NASA Speed News Magazine

Most of us understand that tires make traction through friction between the rubber molecules at the tire’s contact patch and the road surface. And most of us understand that traction increases as vertical load on the tire increases, which is why aerodynamic downforce works so well. In addition...

www.google.com

 

[milesr3]

I made a whole post with calculations to answer this question on how you can do it with battery limit.

I did see that, thank you. Without understanding the assumptions and calculations behind this it's impossible to say if this is achievable. How does it model the torque curves of the motors?

For example, your calculations show that a M3P Panasonic with 1.0G grip should already be achieving 2.75s 0-60 and 10.3s quarter. If your projections correlated better with the real-world then they would be more compelling.

 

[Lets go Plaid]

Hoping one of these YouTubers will slip up and spill the beans! Nothing so far.

 

[milesr3]

Just look at the chart of how much space from the power limiter available everywhere except a single dot.

It's a little wider than a single dot but your point is very valid. One thing I don't understand is how @eivissa power curve starts at just 50 kW.

Assuming that from standstill the motors are producing 100% torque. How much current does this need? Assuming 335 volts is supplied equals 150 Amps drawn. The motors are rated 630A/830A for 3D3/3D6 so this is much less than their 100% rating. Does it really only need 50kW of power to accelerate 1,900kg at 1.0G?

 

[Ultimos]

Hoping one of these YouTubers will slip up and spill the beans! Nothing so far.

I’m actually amazed none of them have leaked anything after all this time. Not even 0-100km/h or 1/4 mile time.

 

[eivissa]

Assuming that from standstill the motors are producing 100% torque. How much current does this need?

This is the LG 5L 3D6 M3P 2022 -> First kick is...

• 120A
• 50kW