Model 3 Performance Test Drives

[30seconds]

Yes most people believe all versions of the model 3 have the exact same rear drive unit. Only differences come from software limitations.

There are two drive units. What about the front unit vs the AWD?

 

[Adm]

Too bad it's behind a paywall...

Google the title of the article...

 

[ℬête Noire]

Google the title of the article...

Only works if you've not exhausted your "free views" for the month.

Very upbeat, a lot of positive. Bubbling with positive I'd say. Takes issue with tire quality of the 20" (good all around, not enough grabby), the A pillar width (obstructing view on very tight hairpins), and the way the display breaks the "minimalist" vibe of the cabin.

The tire comment seems fair, for the 235s. Haven't driven so I can't say about the middle but it was a concern when I was sitting in it. I don't agree with the last one but *shrug* that's a pretty subjective esthetics thing.

 

[eigenv1]

What if my spoiler isn’t installed, dual motor badge removed and calipers painted black.

Will I be treated as a spy?

Only if you dye your hair red and hang out at NRA conventions

 

[Knightshade]

There are two drive units. What about the front unit vs the AWD?

Lot sorted. Which requires them to be the same physical part, otherwise the term makes no sense.

 

[Knightshade]

I don't see why you'd test and bin motors+inverter together

You'd have to ask Elon Musk, since he's the one that told us that's how they're doing it.

Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in

Not motors, not inverters, not "various parts". Drive units.

I
, when you could have higher yield by binning them independently, then taking the product. It's not like manufacturing an inverter has *ANYTHING* to do with manufacturing the motor. Different materials, different process, different equipment.

So here's one maybe reason- many have suggested that with modern MFG the actual "differences" are likely very very small. And that most likely nearly all motors "could" go in a P, they just lot sort because it:

A) Makes people feel better about paying 11k for what is essentially a software unlock
and
B) Might marginally reduce warranty expense down the road for Tesla


So given the lot sorting may not really be doing much of major utility for Tesla-

Doing it by just lot sorting the complete drive unit requires one testing cycle of one part, and then you take the top X% based on P demand and use those in Ps.

Your way would require double the amount of testing and lot sorting, and then sort integration between them to insure only a "best" goes with a "best", which would likely add complexity to the process and slow down manufacturing.

 

[MXWing]

A) Makes people feel better about paying 11k for what is essentially a software unlock

I know it's like trying to make the ocean more salty by peeing into it but

Could people not discuss whether something is 'software unlocked' has ANY bearing or value whatsoever towards the cost of something?

Even if its literally flipping one bit from 0->1 there is so many layers of costing and R&D across the product lifecycle develop and operations that make so and so cost so and so.

In the end:

Value = Willingness to pay.

Submarines or tangerines, and anything else is calculated the same at the end of the day. Tesla is a technology company and their valuations should be pricing in details like:

Write EAP software once - download same code to 2 million cars.

 

[AWDtsla]

You'd have to ask Elon Musk, since he's the one that told us that's how they're doing it.

According to your interpretation.

Your way would require double the amount of testing and lot sorting, and then sort integration between them to insure only a "best" goes with a "best", which would likely add complexity to the process and slow down manufacturing.

Your way would require dismantling a drive unit for remanufacture when they shove a non-working inverter in it and the test fails. Combine uncorrelated failing motors and inverters, and you have twice as much scrap for rework or trash. Sorry, no. This is not a good idea, it is really a terrible idea. Not to mention impossible. The inverter boards will be tested via a test jig that has test probe points for the circuit board. You cannot do this in the final assembly.

 

[Knightshade]

According to your interpretation.

No, according to the literal words he wrote.

A
Your way would require dismantling a drive unit for remanufacture when they shove a non-working inverter in it and the test fails.

Also no.

You can test "does unit work" (and if so pass along to DU assembly) a lot more quickly than you can batch-test an entire group and lot-sort them by output levels.

I know it's like trying to make the ocean more salty by peeing into it but

Could people not discuss whether something is 'software unlocked' has ANY bearing or value whatsoever towards the cost of something?

I didn't. I discussed why Tesla might wish to convey greater value by mentioning the lot sorting.

Even if its literally flipping one bit from 0->1 there is so many layers of costing and R&D across the product lifecycle develop and operations that make so and so cost so and so.

I don't disagree with that in the slightest.

EAP is a software unlock. FSD (once it does something) is a software unlock. Some of the S battery upgrades were software unlocks.

It's something Tesla has done many times, and I don't think the fact it's SW vs HW has any bearing on relative value- apologies if you thought that's why I mentioned the perceived value-add in the binning of DUs.

 

[zonehawk]

The rep who did my Model S test drive and told me it was a performance model was the stores "fleet manager" (or something similar to that) so I would assume he would know what he was talking about. I should have stopped and taken a closer look when we walked past. Guess I'll find out for sure on Monday.

EDIT - I emailed the rep who called me to set up the Model 3 test drive - she confirmed it is a performance model.

I was just there today and can confirm that they do not have a performance model 3, only a RWD version. They expect to get their performance model in a couple of weeks.

 

[boaterva]

So Tyson’s just called me as they’re scheduling test drives (put my name on list when it opened back when) and he said they just got in a MSM and some other color car, neither Red. I assume then stores are still getting in RWD 3’s for testing even before the P’s show up?

We were there just last weekend and they had nothing. The only local car is one 3 at the gallery at Tyson’s mall itself, nothing at the Tyco SC.
Checking later to see when the GF can get off work to go (as the car/rez is for her).

 

[Knightshade]

I'm also a little confused at how even if they did bin the parts separately that would change the fact they're the same parts.

Because again, otherwise the idea of binning them makes no actual sense.

The way Elon actually said it's done:

They lot sort a batch of drive units- the same part all. The top ones go in a P, the others go in non-P cars. Both types of cars got the same part, the Ps just got ones that are (likely marginally) higher "scoring"


The way you're suggesting they do it.

Exactly the same thing, except they bin twice. It's still binning the same parts. The inverters are the same for all model 3s, just the highest scoring go in P DUs. The motors are the same (well, all rears are and all fronts are) and the highest scoring go in P DUs.

Other than more binning work, your way doesn't change the original statement that they're the same parts in all the 3s, just lot sorted.

 

[Runt8]

I was just there today and can confirm that they do not have a performance model 3, only a RWD version. They expect to get their performance model in a couple of weeks.

Weird. Her exact words from the email: “It will be the performance model. I drove it yesterday, it’s awesome!”

Not sure why I’m surprised that one of the sales people has their information wrong. I’ll find out Monday...

 

[AWDtsla]

I'm also a little confused at how even if they did bin the parts separately that would change the fact they're the same parts.

Because again, otherwise the idea of binning them makes no actual sense.

The way Elon actually said it's done:

They lot sort a batch of drive units- the same part all. The top ones go in a P, the others go in non-P cars. Both types of cars got the same part, the Ps just got ones that are (likely marginally) higher "scoring"


The way you're suggesting they do it.

Exactly the same thing, except they bin twice. It's still binning the same parts. The inverters are the same for all model 3s, just the highest scoring go in P DUs. The motors are the same (well, all rears are and all fronts are) and the highest scoring go in P DUs.

Other than more binning work, your way doesn't change the original statement that they're the same parts in all the 3s, just lot sorted.

"Same part"? It's almost like you know nothing about manufacturing... huh

 

[Knightshade]

"Same part"? It's almost like you know nothing about manufacturing... huh

Why are you talking to yourself?


Anyway- Lot sorting is when you take a bunch (or lot) of the same physical part then performance test it, and then sort them by the results. At that point you can use those sorted into different groups for different purposes.

If you start with 2 physically different parts then "lot sorting" them makes no sense. They were already "sorted" before you started.


Elon Musk explicitly stated they are doing lot sorting with the drive units and the best ones go into the P.

So they are taking the same physical parts that make up the DUs, and lot sorting them.

Not sure how you're still getting confused about this?

 

[30seconds]

Why are you talking to yourself?


Anyway- Lot sorting is when you take a bunch (or lot) of the same physical part then performance test it, and then sort them by the results. At that point you can use those sorted into different groups for different purposes.

If you start with 2 physically different parts then "lot sorting" them makes no sense. They were already "sorted" before you started.


Elon Musk explicitly stated they are doing lot sorting with the drive units and the best ones go into the P.

So they are taking the same physical parts that make up the DUs, and lot sorting them.

Not sure how you're still getting confused about this?

Look, you are wrong. So let’s move on.

 

[Runt8]

Why are you talking to yourself?


Anyway- Lot sorting is when you take a bunch (or lot) of the same physical part then performance test it, and then sort them by the results. At that point you can use those sorted into different groups for different purposes.

If you start with 2 physically different parts then "lot sorting" them makes no sense. They were already "sorted" before you started.


Elon Musk explicitly stated they are doing lot sorting with the drive units and the best ones go into the P.

So they are taking the same physical parts that make up the DUs, and lot sorting them.

Not sure how you're still getting confused about this?

That’s certainly one possible interpretation. It also seems possible that the motors are tested and sorted before being installed in the drive unit and have different components based on performance or not (yes, I realize Elon said “drive unit.” It’s possible he was referring to the motor, since lot sorting part of the drive unit still results in a lot sorted drive unit). No one here has enough information to say one way the other, so arguing about it is kind of pointless.

EDIT - and this being the internet, I realize what I just wrote is wishful thinking at best...

 

[Knightshade]

Look, you are wrong. So let’s move on.

Look, I'm not, but feel free to!

That’s certainly one possible interpretation. It also seems possible that the motors are tested and sorted before being installed in the drive unit and have different components based on performance or not

That's not possible at all though.

If the components are different for P units it makes no sense to lot sort them.

They're already sorted by virtue of having different parts from one another.

Lot sorting only makes sense to sort a batch of the same actual parts to pick up small differences in manufacturing variance.

That's why the "they must be different parts" bit doesn't make the slightest sense.

(yes, I realize Elon said “drive unit.” It’s possible he was referring to the motor, since lot sorting part of the drive unit still results in a lot sorted drive unit).

I mean, it's possible he meant "tires" too. But since he was on twitter and used a longer term, with a specific, more complex, meaning, he probably meant the words he actually used.

But again, even if it's sorted at the motor level and then at the inverter level, and then combined later, that's only possible if the same motors are being lot sorted and the same inverters are being sorted. That's what the term means.

No one here has enough information to say one way the other

I mean, except for considering what lot sorting actually is, and why it doesn't make any sense if you're not sorting the same parts.

Here's an example-

Centaur Technologies Tour - Making The Via Nano CPU - Page 2 of 3 - Legit Reviews

This is a story about a chip making facility (lot sorting is common in microprocessor manufacturing)-

It mentions how they take the chips from MFG (same part off the same line) and then check "to see if the VIA Nano CPU’s were stable at 1.8GHz at three different temperatures (85C, 5C and then 25C) with 1.1V on production platforms. The processors that pass testing at this stage move along to become VIA Nano L2100 processors, which are the 1.8GHz processors."

The ones who aren't would be sold as lower speed processors. Even though it is physically the same processor as the one that tested better.

Same deal here- except since these aren't bleeding edge small-nanometer processors, the manufacturing variances should be a whole lot narrower as others have mentioned, meaning the differences are likely quite small and the main benefit of lot sorting will be marginally lower warranty costs in the long run.

, so arguing about it is kind of pointless.

EDIT - and this being the internet, I realize what I just wrote is wishful thinking at best...

sure- though I do appreciate the irony of you presenting an argument and then telling us how pointless said argument was

 

[Runt8]

Sorry my post wasn't very clear, as you missed every point I tried to make. I'll try once more and then take my own advice.

That's not possible at all though.

If the components are different for P units it makes no sense to lot sort them.

They're already sorted by virtue of having different parts from one another.

Lot sorting only makes sense to sort a batch of the same actual parts to pick up small differences in manufacturing variance.

That's why the "they must be different parts" bit doesn't make the slightest sense.

I mean, it's possible he meant "tires" too. But since he was on twitter and used a longer term, with a specific, more complex, meaning, he probably meant the words he actually used.

But again, even if it's sorted at the motor level and then at the inverter level, and then combined later, that's only possible if the same motors are being lot sorted and the same inverters are being sorted. That's what the term means.

My point is that you can lot sort just the motors (a single part), then combine them with the rest of the drive unit and you will have, in some sense, a "lot sorted drive unit." You're stuck on one interpretation of Elon's tweet (which may very well be correct), but it's also possible he just shortened it instead of spelling out exactly which part of the drive unit was lot sorted.

sure- though I do appreciate the irony of you presenting an argument and then telling us how pointless said argument was

This was referring to my attempt to tell people on the internet to stop arguing - which is the advice I will be taking now. Hopefully we will get some more information soon.

 

[SD_Engnr]

Sorry my post wasn't very clear, as you missed every point I tried to make. I'll try once more and then take my own advice.

Use the ignore feature. Several threads have become much easier to follow and read.