Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

[Daniel in SD]

I'm not making excuses for Tesla. I'm saying that this is what happens when a product is launched ASAP, and I don't see why you would make such a big deal out of it. Well, actually, that's not completely true. I don't see why you would make such a big deal about it when you aren't behaving the same way about existing auto manufacturers sitting on their hands and not making more affordable 300+ mile EVs.

I could see being critical of Tesla for rolling out products ASAP, but if that's the case I would expect you would also be critical of other manufacturers dragging their feet. Or, you would accept that Tesla would have parts availability issues because the 3 is being rolled out ASAP and that other manufacturers are going to drag their feet to get everything in place before building 300+ mile EVs.

I guess complaining about Tesla and giving other manufacturers a pass is what I don't understand.

This isn't an isolated incident with Tesla. They have inexplicable problems supplying parts to bodyshops for the Model S/X too. Everyone here, I hope, would like to see Tesla succeed. GM makes a 240mi EV and you can easily buy parts for it.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

This isn't an isolated incident with Tesla. They have inexplicable problems supplying parts to bodyshops for the Model S/X too. Everyone here, I hope, would like to see Tesla succeed. GM makes a 240mi EV and you can easily buy parts for it.

Like I said before, I think it's fine to criticize Tesla's parts availability, but doing so without criticizing how poorly existing manufacturers have done with EVs doesn't make sense to me. GM makes 10,000,000+ cars/year worldwide and has been around for 100+ years. Tesla makes 100,000+ cars/year and has been around for what, 10+ years? If Tesla had the experience and volume of a large automaker, and the Model 3 was one fifth of one percent of Tesla's annual sales, I'm sure parts availability would be fine. I'd love to see Tesla selling 10,000,000+ cars/year, but until then I'm fine with them pushing out long range EVs ASAP rather than sitting on their hands like every other major manufacturer, even if it means poor parts availability.

Putting it in the context of the whole fast/good/cheap, pick two idea, why would I criticize fast/good because it's not cheap, but not criticize good/cheap because it's not fast? There are going to be constraints to anything. Why criticize one set but not another?

 

[LCR1]

I'm not making excuses for Tesla. I'm saying that this is what happens when a product is launched ASAP, and I don't see why you would make such a big deal out of it. Well, actually, that's not completely true. I don't see why you would make such a big deal about it when you aren't behaving the same way about existing auto manufacturers sitting on their hands and not making more affordable 300+ mile EVs.

I could see being critical of Tesla for rolling out products ASAP, but if that's the case I would expect you would also be critical of other manufacturers dragging their feet. Or, you would accept that Tesla would have parts availability issues because the 3 is being rolled out ASAP and that other manufacturers are going to drag their feet to get everything in place before building 300+ mile EVs.

I guess complaining about Tesla and giving other manufacturers a pass is what I don't understand.

One has nothing to do with the other. A brake pad isn't specific to an EV. A brake pad is on every single car. If any auto manufacture fails to have brake pads available I'd give them crap.

Find me another manufacturer that can't sell brake pads without the caliper and I'll give them crap also. Until then, I'll give tesla crap for failing at something so simple.

 

[LCR1]

This isn't an isolated incident with Tesla. They have inexplicable problems supplying parts to bodyshops for the Model S/X too. Everyone here, I hope, would like to see Tesla succeed. GM makes a 240mi EV and you can easily buy parts for it.

And I don't have to prove ownership with a vin number and hope my vechole doesn't end up on a black list at some point.

 

[LCR1]

Like I said before, I think it's fine to criticize Tesla's parts availability, but doing so without criticizing how poorly existing manufacturers have done with EVs doesn't make sense to me. GM makes 10,000,000+ cars/year worldwide and has been around for 100+ years. Tesla makes 100,000+ cars/year and has been around for what, 10+ years? If Tesla had the experience and volume of a large automaker, and the Model 3 was one fifth of one percent of Tesla's annual sales, I'm sure parts availability would be fine. I'd love to see Tesla selling 10,000,000+ cars/year, but until then I'm fine with them pushing out long range EVs ASAP rather than sitting on their hands like every other major manufacturer, even if it means poor parts availability.

Putting it in the context of the whole fast/good/cheap, pick two idea, why would I criticize fast/good because it's not cheap, but not criticize good/cheap because it's not fast? There are going to be constraints to anything. Why criticize one set but not another?

It's not good if the pads can't be bought separately, it's not cheap to buy a whole new brake system. And it's not fast if you have to wait for parts to be shipped and schedule an appointment.

Any other family sedan can get individual pads picked up, same day, for a reasonable price.

Having to wait over a week and spend $3k to replace a simple pad is neither cheap, good, or fast.

 

[DarthPierce]

We are talking about parts that there was a reasonable expectation would last a very long time on a so far very low volume vehicle.

Anecdotally, my parents (HUGE Lexus fans (eyeroll)) bought an LC500 3 months ago and it's been in the shop continuously virtually the entire time since they discovered on day 2 of ownership that the HVAC was non-functional. Turns out there was some part left out, buried deep behind the engine, that there were 0 spare parts for in the world. It took Lexus (Toyota) literally 3 months to provide this part since no one ever thought to stock/produce a spare. It's not just Tesla - any company makes judgements of what parts there will need to be spares of and how many. Sometimes those estimates are wrong.

 

[McRat]

Brake pads should be in stock like tires.

Glass, brake components, filters (if any), bulbs, lens, rims, lug nuts, studs or hubs, wiper blades, keys, should should show stock before 9 months after release.

The Model 3LR is 4,000lb with driver. There is no regen on the fronts, but 70% of the braking occurs there. We are probably going to see poor life on the front pads of the 3LRs and 3SRs by enthusiastic drivers. Just like tires. They last 50,000mi for some drivers, and 2,000 miles for others.

No, they should not be sold as sets. Calipers have measurable tolerances and visible wear areas. There is no need to throw away a caliper if it's to spec.

 

[mongo]

Brake pads should be in stock like tires.
No, they should not be sold as sets. Calipers have measurable tolerances and visible wear areas. There is no need to throw away a caliper if it's to spec.

Agree, spare parts should be available.

The caliper wear areas are in the piston bore. To inspect requires removing the caliper followed by the dust boot and piston assembly (four pistons on the 3, if I saw correctly). At that point you are either reassembling or using a rebuilt unit (with removed one as a core).

 

[Daniel in SD]

We are talking about parts that there was a reasonable expectation would last a very long time on a so far very low volume vehicle.

Anecdotally, my parents (HUGE Lexus fans (eyeroll)) bought an LC500 3 months ago and it's been in the shop continuously virtually the entire time since they discovered on day 2 of ownership that the HVAC was non-functional. Turns out there was some part left out, buried deep behind the engine, that there were 0 spare parts for in the world. It took Lexus (Toyota) literally 3 months to provide this part since no one ever thought to stock/produce a spare. It's not just Tesla - any company makes judgements of what parts there will need to be spares of and how many. Sometimes those estimates are wrong.

They've only produced 2500 or so LC500s and you can order brake pads, 04465-11010 - Lexus Parts Now

 

[arnis]

The Model 3LR is 4,000lb with driver. There is no regen on the fronts, but 70% of the braking occurs there. We are probably going to see poor life on the front pads of the 3LRs and 3SRs by enthusiastic drivers. Just like tires

I expect cold climate users (Norway for example) will have accelerated brake pad wear.
As of right now, Teslas have NO regen at any state of charge if battery is below 0*C.
That is pretty much every morning for 2-3 months for some.
As of right now, Model 3 is not capable to heat the pack at reasonable speed of 5-10 minutes.

 

[WarpedOne]

My ignore list is getting longer. What is the max row count in the table? Will it suffice?

 

[aveday]

@mattcrowley, thank you for sharing your experiences. I am an amateur racer (gen 1 Miata's typically) and recently took delivery of my 3 and after reading your posts a couple weeks ago I knew what to watch out for when mildly tracking my 3 for a few hot laps.

My observations:
Brakes: I too saw brake fade (squishy pedal feel) after about 2-3 laps of our local 1.8mi circuit track (this track is favored by owners of lower horsepower vehicles due to emphasis on the 11 turns rather than straights). In total I did about 5 or 6 hot laps with some cool down periods between them. Brake pedal remained squishy (with noticeably longer pedal throw) for about a week following the on-track use (I assume I had boiled the latent moisture in the fluid and it took time to either re-absorb or work it's way up to the master cylinder as it has since fully recovered to stock pedal feel). I visually checked brake pads and they all looked to still have a fair amount of meat on them (did not remove to measure thickness). Wheels did get a fair amount of brake dust on them. Stock MXM4 tires didn't chunk out or feather to and noticeable extent. It's quite possible the increased grip of your upgraded P Zero Nero GT tires attributed to the much faster brake wear.

Power limiting: I never felt or noticed the car go into power limiting (though i did not take data to prove otherwise). My average power use for the last go giving a friend a ride was 1,147 Wh/mi (one hot lap that included slower on and off track/pit road use). I would say since this wasn't a track day (I was racing my miata that day and was just taking the 3 out for fun and to give rides) and because of the previously mentioned brake issues noted from you I took it a little easy with cool-down periods after each hot lap.

Nannies: Overall the car felt pretty good on track. I'm experienced enough to normally be able to give vehicles a healthy slip angle on corners and the Model 3 traction control (even in slip mode) did not allow that at all, but i would say it was very polite in the way it stepped in. On the sweepers i could put the accelerator to the floor and the car would wait until track out following apex before accelerating (it correctly judged available grip levels and steering input). I would say this car is tuned to be very safe for the untrained driver in panic situations. It was clear it was braking individual wheels which also led me to feel the brakes would wear out quicker the more you asked the traction control to do its thing (to those saying driving down a mountain road wouldn't over-use the brakes because of regen, if you were to do it spiritedly at the edge of traction for a long period of time it very likely could). Also, regen on accelerator lift never felt like it imbalanced the car (some were concerned about that though i did not attempt to simulate a panic situation the sweeper corner was pretty close to a high speed lane change).

Other issues: I did have 3 lugnuts on the front right tire come all of the way loose (lost 2 of them completely, the third was about to come off) the week following (these were the stock 18" pinwheel and I didn't re-torque before or after being on track). Had I not removed the covers for visual improvement it's likely the last two lugnuts holding the wheel on would have given out before noticing. A strong reminder to others to torque their lugnuts following the heat cycles of the track or spirited use, I failed this as I didn't have the right socket size at the time and didn't think just a few laps would matter; It's something I may advise new owners do after 50 miles of street driving as a precaution (the new lugnuts from the autostore instructed re-torquing at 25mi, and then at 50mi intervals until re-torquing no longer induces movement in the lugnut).

Conclusion:
Any car you take on track you have to be willing to wear through items much quicker than you would on the street. It seems that the Model 3 is lacking in the brake department for continued use on track, but this puts it in a class with many street sedans and family cars (albeit most aren't nearly as expensive nor sporty feeling as the 3 to even want to try). I hope aftermarket pads become available as enthusiasts will want to use this car to it's capacity (and buying the entire caliper assembly to get new pads seems like a waste). I would also like to see a "sport" setting for traction control which allows for more slip angle on track (letting an experienced driver do more of the traction management = fun).

 

[Daniel in SD]

Good report! Seems like better brakes (maybe just pads) and defeatable stability control are all that are needed to make it a fun track car. The lug nuts coming off is a little bit scary. I always check my wheel torque before autocross but I never thought to do it afterwards. Also seems like a major problem with lug nut covers that I had never considered. I know someone who really messed up her arm when a wheel fell off going around turn and the car flipped.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

One has nothing to do with the other. A brake pad isn't specific to an EV. A brake pad is on every single car. If any auto manufacture fails to have brake pads available I'd give them crap.

Find me another manufacturer that can't sell brake pads without the caliper and I'll give them crap also. Until then, I'll give tesla crap for failing at something so simple.

Tesla's parts availability, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with the speed they're bringing EVs to market. If you have proof that limited or no parts availability is due to something besides moving fast, I'd like to see it.

It's not good if the pads can't be bought separately, it's not cheap to buy a whole new brake system. And it's not fast if you have to wait for parts to be shipped and schedule an appointment.

Any other family sedan can get individual pads picked up, same day, for a reasonable price.

Having to wait over a week and spend $3k to replace a simple pad is neither cheap, good, or fast.

Being able to buy a Model 3 in the first place is IMO good and fast. Who else is making a 300-mile EV with the 3's performance spec? It certainly isn't cheap, but getting all three isn't easy.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla's parts availability, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with the speed they're bringing EVs to market. If you have proof that limited or no parts availability is due to something besides moving fast, I'd like to see it.

If you have proof that it's not incompetence I'd like to see it. I really don't follow this argument. They have the parts, they're using them to build cars! Maybe they could order an extra dozen brake pads. Personally I have no idea how any of this works. Nissan and GM have no problem supplying parts for their EVs. The brake system on a Tesla is exactly the same as on an ICE vehicle. They're almost certainly purchasing it from a supplier. I just don't get it. It seems like they waste huge amounts of money having cars sit at service centers waiting for parts.

 

[LCR1]

Tesla's parts availability, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with the speed they're bringing EVs to market. If you have proof that limited or no parts availability is due to something besides moving fast, I'd like to see it.


Being able to buy a Model 3 in the first place is IMO good and fast. Who else is making a 300-mile EV with the 3's performance spec? It certainly isn't cheap, but getting all three isn't easy.

The bottle neck for a slow ramp up isn't at the brake pads. And quit asking about other EVs this has nothing to do with EVs, it has everything to do brake pads. There is absolutely nothing special about producing brake pads for an EV for any manufacture, let alone compared to an ICE.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The bottle neck for a slow ramp up isn't at the brake pads. And quit asking about other EVs this has nothing to do with EVs, it has everything to do brake pads. There is absolutely nothing special about producing brake pads for an EV for any manufacture, let alone compared to an ICE.

You're getting it backwards. The fast ramp up, relative to other manufacturers, is why Tesla has issues with parts availability. They had (have to some degree?) the same issues with Model S/X parts availability when they were ramping production.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

If you have proof that it's not incompetence I'd like to see it. I really don't follow this argument. They have the parts, they're using them to build cars! Maybe they could order an extra dozen brake pads. Personally I have no idea how any of this works. Nissan and GM have no problem supplying parts for their EVs. The brake system on a Tesla is exactly the same as on an ICE vehicle. They're almost certainly purchasing it from a supplier. I just don't get it. It seems like they waste huge amounts of money having cars sit at service centers waiting for parts.

It could be because of incompetence. I don't have proof it is or isn't incompetence. I do know Tesla is moving much faster than other automakers because they're among the smallest/newest automakers and are somehow building cars other automakers said they could not build and have not built.

If you want to believe it's incompetence and not Tesla moving fast, you can, but my money's on moving fast because we know Tesla's doing that. There could be incompetence too, but there's no evidence I've seen for or against it.

 

[Zoomit]

The Model 3LR is 4,000lb with driver. There is no regen on the fronts, but 70% of the braking occurs there. We are probably going to see poor life on the front pads of the 3LRs and 3SRs by enthusiastic drivers.

Come now, @McRat, let's not hyperbolize! The Model 3 has a low CG, long wheelbase, and rear biased static wheel loading. During typical driving, the front brakes won't see hardly any use, due to regen. To get 70% of the loading on the front tire, you'd need to decelerate at 1.4g. Good luck with that! During aggressive driving, the front load bias will be 55-60%. Front pad life won't be overly bad, just "normally" bad as the OP found out.

Also, regen on accelerator lift never felt like it imbalanced the car (some were concerned about that though i did not attempt to simulate a panic situation the sweeper corner was pretty close to a high speed lane change).

Regen on lift averages a paltry 0.16g, according to Motor Trend. During this deceleration, the 52% rear tire loading shifts forward only 2% to a nice even 50% in fact.

The Math
CG height: 18" (my guess, same as Model S)
Wheelbase: 113"
3 LR weight distribution: 48% Front, 52% rear
Longitudinal CG: 59" [113*.52]

Front wheel load at 1.4g: 1-((59-1.4*18)/113) = 70%
Rear wheel load at 0.16g: (59-0.16*18)/113 = 50%

 

[Daniel in SD]

It's still 64% at 1G (which is about the maximum braking acceleration). That's why the front brakes need to be about twice as powerful as the rear. What did this have to do with Tesla being unable to supply brake pads? haha
Just because the brakes fade doesn't mean they won't last a long time under normal use. I would be a little worried about descending a steep grade without regen. There's no way to downshift like an ICE vehicle and the Model 3 is super aerodynamic and heavy. I've seen plenty of ICE vehicles burn their brakes descending long grades if they don't downshift. It seems like Tesla might want to add some software to estimate brake heat and warn the driver.