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Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

Will the Model 3 battery limit power on the track?


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It seems like Tesla might want to add some software to estimate brake heat and warn the driver.

I mentioned brake overheat warning possibility earlier. Professionals think otherwise. They think Tesla should not be taken on track in the first place. Therefore Tesla should do nothing.
Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

PS. I forgot to mention that pad wear will be accelerated in cold climates not just due to no or limited regen but also due to wheelslip control (electronic differential locking). That happens on rear driving wheels. Every time ESP light blinks, brake pads are used.

I wasted my EV brake pads in 90 000km even though my vehicle almost never limits regen.
 
I would be a little worried about descending a steep grade without regen. There's no way to downshift like an ICE vehicle and the Model 3 is super aerodynamic and heavy. I've seen plenty of ICE vehicles burn their brakes descending long grades if they don't downshift. It seems like Tesla might want to add some software to estimate brake heat and warn the driver.

This was being discussed in the Semi thread. Prevention, warming pack to allow regen and not fully charging on a mountain peak, is the best option. However, if anyone is in this situation, descending the hill slower requires less kW of regen and produces less heat generation (lower max brake temp) and/or pull over to let brakes cool often. If it's an actual HW/SW failure, just pull over where safe.

If you have any regen ability, you can go down the hill slowly. If you start to over accelerate due to a little too much go pedal, use the brakes as firmly as is safe to bring your speed back down (a short firm deceleration is less energy into the brakes than a longer slower one). To really max it out, put heater on hot high, lights on, rear defrost, heated seats, AC (via defrost) to pull out every kW possible. Rolling down the windows will also increase drag.
 
It's not good if the pads can't be bought separately, it's not cheap to buy a whole new brake system. And it's not fast if you have to wait for parts to be shipped and schedule an appointment.

Any other family sedan can get individual pads picked up, same day, for a reasonable price.

Having to wait over a week and spend $3k to replace a simple pad is neither cheap, good, or fast.
Are there not part numbers on the pads that could be cross referenced with another make and model? Seems wasteful on Tesla (and supplier) part to design a one off pad that isn't used in any other vehicle on earth.
 
Come now, @McRat, let's not hyperbolize! The Model 3 has a low CG, long wheelbase, and rear biased static wheel loading. During typical driving, the front brakes won't see hardly any use, due to regen. To get 70% of the loading on the front tire, you'd need to decelerate at 1.4g. Good luck with that! During aggressive driving, the front load bias will be 55-60%. Front pad life won't be overly bad, just "normally" bad as the OP found out.


Regen on lift averages a paltry 0.16g, according to Motor Trend. During this deceleration, the 52% rear tire loading shifts forward only 2% to a nice even 50% in fact.

The Math
CG height: 18" (my guess, same as Model S)
Wheelbase: 113"
3 LR weight distribution: 48% Front, 52% rear
Longitudinal CG: 59" [113*.52]

Front wheel load at 1.4g: 1-((59-1.4*18)/113) = 70%
Rear wheel load at 0.16g: (59-0.16*18)/113 = 50%

Dive increases bite. Chassis lifts in rear, dives in front. You have your vector wrong. Contact patch acts on CG, chassis rotation creates tighter vector at nose, and more lift at rear. 6%? What do you get?
 
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Dive increases bite. Chassis lifts in rear, dives in front. You have your vector wrong. Contact patch acts on CG, chassis rotation creates tighter vector at nose, and more lift at rear. 6%? What do you get?
The dive at the front and lift at the rear doesn't move the center of gravity significantly. I think his formulas are right. I calculated for 1G braking and it is 64%. For a front engine car it would probably by 70% but the Model 3 is slightly rear biased. Brake systems are always biased heavily toward the front for stability too.
 
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You're getting it backwards. The fast ramp up, relative to other manufacturers, is why Tesla has issues with parts availability. They had (have to some degree?) the same issues with Model S/X parts availability when they were ramping production.

Ford pumped out over a million brand new super duties designed from the ground up. They had brake pads available. Chevy pumped out thousands of bolts, they have brake pads available. all you're showcasing is that tesla can't compete with real car manufactures that have simple parts available from day one.
 
The dive at the front and lift at the rear doesn't move the center of gravity significantly. I think his formulas are right. I calculated for 1G braking and it is 64%. For a front engine car it would probably by 70% but the Model 3 is slightly rear biased. Brake systems are always biased heavily toward the front for stability too.

The dive is a rotation. Like swinging a hammer.
The vector thing can be demonstrated with just a tire laying around your garage.
Grab the tire 1/2 way up and pull.
Put your hands 1/2 way behind and push.
One is lifting, one is planting.

EDIT to do better use rope 46" and tie 5" up from center. Pull.
Pole 46" 5" up, push.
 
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The dive is a rotation. Like swinging a hammer.
The vector thing can be demonstrated with just a tire laying around your garage.
Grab the tire 1/2 way up and pull.
Put your hands 1/2 way behind and push.
One is lifting, one is planting.

EDIT to do better use rope 46" and tie 5" up from center. Pull.
Pole 46" 5" up, push.
from this site or
Wikipedia:

deltaWeight = acceleration * (CG height/ wheelbase)*mass

1.4G * 18inch/133inch *mass = .22*mass or 22% load shift. If car started at 48/52, then it ends up 70% 30%.
For the regen deceleration of 0.16
0.16 G * 18/113 * mass = .025 * mass, starting at 48/52, this gets to 50.5/49.5.
@Daniel in SD 's numbers check out
 

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The dive is a rotation. Like swinging a hammer.
The vector thing can be demonstrated with just a tire laying around your garage.
Grab the tire 1/2 way up and pull.
Put your hands 1/2 way behind and push.
One is lifting, one is planting.
I admit I don't quite understand this example, but those tire loading equations are just a sum of the moments, which are dependent on vector direction. What's important to remember is that the vector is always pointed in the direction of motion (by definition). Even if the orientation of the car changes, it is still traveling forward, parallel to the ground. As mentioned, suspension squat changes the height of the CG very slightly, but it's pretty trivial, hence I ignored it.

Here's a video on the derivation of the equations, if you want to join me in the Car Engineering Geek Club:
 
Ford pumped out over a million brand new super duties designed from the ground up. They had brake pads available. Chevy pumped out thousands of bolts, they have brake pads available. all you're showcasing is that tesla can't compete with real car manufactures that have simple parts available from day one.
Where's Ford's 300+ mile EV? Where is GM's? When was the last time either one of them doubled their US sales in a year?

Tesla's sold roughly 7,860 EVs in the first two months of 2018. Over the same time period, those real manufacturers have sold about 6,515 EVs, combined.

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

I can respect that you would prioritize brake pad production over EV production. That's apparently what all the real car manufacturers are doing. My personal preference is for more EVs, even if it means brake pad availability will suffer.
:p
 
Where's Ford's 300+ mile EV? Where is GM's? When was the last time either one of them doubled their US sales in a year?

Tesla's sold roughly 7,860 EVs in the first two months of 2018. Over the same time period, those real manufacturers have sold about 6,515 EVs, combined.

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

I can respect that you would prioritize brake pad production over EV production. That's apparently what all the real car manufacturers are doing. My personal preference is for more EVs, even if it means brake pad availability will suffer.
:p
You could use this logic to excuse any of Tesla's deficiencies. Tesla does not make brake pads, rotors, or calipers so I'm not sure what you're talking about. They are using the same suppliers as all the "real" manufacturers. Honestly I have no idea why they have such a problem with parts availability but your theory doesn't make any sense.
 
You could use this logic to excuse any of Tesla's deficiencies. Tesla does not make brake pads, rotors, or calipers so I'm not sure what you're talking about. They are using the same suppliers as all the "real" manufacturers. Honestly I have no idea why they have such a problem with parts availability but your theory doesn't make any sense.
What theory is that?

Tesla has problems with parts availability, brake pads in this case, and all the real auto makers (as LCR1 put it) have problems with EV availability.

I would rather Tesla continue to crank out more EVs than every other real automaker combined, even if they have problems with parts availability. If you and LCR1 would rather they produce fewer cars and not have problems with parts availability, that's fine too. :D

If you can’t source extra brake pads for 10,000 cars, you will have much greater part availability concern once you reach 100k yet alone 500k.

Tesla you have part issue. Might want to get your supply chain in check.
extrapolating.png
 
Last I checked, Tesla didn’t make those brake pads? So why so hard to have extra brake pads.

Is brake pads the production bottlenecks (hell) for Tesla?
They likely aren’t buying them in enough bulk for there to be “extras” yet. Plus it would appear that third party options aren’t yet available.

Question can one go to Autozone and buy brake pads for the Model S or X yet?
 
Maybe they could order an extra dozen brake pads. Personally I have no idea how any of this works.
[Brand] = Premium brand ( edited for avoid confidential legal problems )

I have, or at least, i'm working on a software for [BRAND] about the replacement part so i know a thing or two about 'how it works'.
The base "problem" is that Tesla do an extensive upgrade of the car every couple of days editing some parts etc ( from what elon said times ago they change hundreads of part every week if i remember correctly ) a thing that other manufacturer don't do. Said that they produce in-house more than every other automakers ( vertical-integration ) so it's a normal thing to have problem with supply since they need to produce them and stock them ( they have space problem, if i remember correctly they are builing a multy-level storage for that ) wich of course it's harder to do if you have all-in-line machines.
Said that, all manufacturer use different part for the manufacturing and the replacement since they usually use pre-assemblated part ( like, caliper+brake etc ) since they don't really need the 'single part' and so they don't order it, and if i understood correctly what [BRAND] told us usually when something broke or malfunction during the legale warranty they are legally obligated to replace all part of it ( in this case the caliper is in ).
So, since you have the 'code' of the pre-assembled part in your "what's inside this specific car" ( and remember, they need to know every damn car they produced based on the vin since again, you make incremental changes every week - a thing that [BRAND] does, but not [OTHER BRAND] for example, [OTHER BRAND] work like this: "this car was produced this week, to this must be the part we put inside" ), in this case you need to "de-assembly" the part ( virtually of course ) and "name" the single piece that the pre-assembled piece is made of, then you start thinking "it has some meaning that we sell this single piece de-assembled? in how many pieces we want to sell it?" of course this need to be decided every time and of course has some implication about the intercambiability of the parts, if you de-assemble too much ( put like it: you changed something and the new piston doesn't work well with the old one, in this case you need to replace the whole assembly ).
This is a really ( really! ) time-consuming thing to do ( in [BRAND] this is half-done by them, and half-done by the organization i work with ) since of course you really,really, need to be sure there is no problem with the "new" part and the new part is really perfectly compatible.

It has sense, for now, that they keep only the pre-assembled brake kit with the caliper since they don't expect to change the pad since it's easier to stock, it's easier to replace, and doesn't need the work of de-asssmbly and check.

Yes, it's silly, it's more costly, but you need to understand that:
- The space needed for the replacement part has a maintanance cost
- Some part may be "useless" after a time ( regulation changes, the part get's old etc ) so you loose money if you don't spend it

All of this just to say: it's not so easy as it seems, and of course Tesla should do better and need to do better, but other manufacturer keep stock in different country and the dealer keep a stock themself for some common part since they standardized much of it, so a brake pad works well for more than a model etc. this is translated in a more stock cost and of course it result in a fastest response

About the VIN: you can order some spare part for [BRAND], but they ask for the VIN to be sure you order the correct part, and i assure you, they change a lot during time ( and [BRAND] isn't Tesla with their fast-iteration so this speak volume of the problem they could have with replacement part )


p.s. Sorry for my really bad english

edit: Replaced the brand name with [BRAND]
 
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I think I can summarize what @cronosx said: since Tesla doesn't install brake pads at the factory but rather caliper assemblies, it doesn't make sense to stock pads there.

I find it difficult to believe Tesla had the brake manufacturer (probably Brembo?) create a new caliper/pad set, so I expect the pads are available from the manufacturer. If they'd just release the manufacturer's part number, the pads could probably be obtained from any major parts chain for a fraction of the price of the caliper assembly. It seems however Tesla keeps all part numbers under lock and key, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same at all auto manufacturers; they prefer to keep customers in the dark as long as possible and mark up ridiculously.

@diamond.g Yes, you can get Model S pads from AutoZone. The most expensive ones they carry are about half Tesla's price. (I haven't looked for Model X)
 
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I think I can summarize what @cronosx said: since Tesla doesn't install brake pads at the factory but rather caliper assemblies, it doesn't make sense to stock pads there.

I find it difficult to believe Tesla had the brake manufacturer (probably Brembo?) create a new caliper/pad set, so I expect the pads are available from the manufacturer. If they'd just release the manufacturer's part number, the pads could probably be obtained from any major parts chain for a fraction of the price of the caliper assembly. It seems however Tesla keeps all part numbers under lock and key, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same at all auto manufacturers; they prefer to keep customers in the dark as long as possible and mark up ridiculously.

@diamond.g Yes, you can get Model S pads from AutoZone. The most expensive ones they carry are about half Tesla's price. (I haven't looked for Model X)
Cool, so at some point we should expect the same for the 3. I wonder how soon after the S went on sale were folks able to get pads from Autozone (or Advance Autoparts).
 
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I think I can summarize what @cronosx said: since Tesla doesn't install brake pads at the factory but rather caliper assemblies, it doesn't make sense to stock pads there.
sort of, what i said is that publish/stock the part de-assembled has a cost, and they didn't have time to do it, or they tought that for now they don't need it in a separate code.
Yes, of course brembo can disassemble it, but need to be requested, stocked etc

so I expect the pads are available from the manufacturer.
Maybe.. but maybe not, we don't really know since the brake in an electric car maybe need to be smoother or similar
If they'd just release the manufacturer's part number, the pads could probably be obtained from any major parts chain for a fraction of the price of the caliper assembly.
yes.. but again, you really need to know the vin to get the exact repaid you need if they don't use always the same and they haven't analyzed the question and decided it's suitable.
I know, it's silly, a pad is a pad, but it goes in a "big pile" of things to do, and since nobody need a pad, it's probably low priority for now, it doesn't means that it's not a profit center or similar, maybe they want to get your money, but maybe they just didn't have time, we don't really know.. for now.
My point was merely "it's not that simple as it seems", the conclusions is up to you.

It seems however Tesla keeps all part numbers under lock and key, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same at all auto manufacturers; they prefer to keep customers in the dark as long as possible and mark up ridiculously.
i can assure you, this is a thing that often occour, some part that are commercialy available are not released so the can get a HUGE profit out of it, just because you don't know if "it's exactly the same", of course if you buy a Ferrari you don't really care about it, if you buy a Fiat Punto, then.. the after market measure every part of it and sell after-market for the most used parts.

Tesla is for now a Ferrari.. in a way. They don't produce mass market cars ( for now ), they change often the specifications, so an after-market kit for now is not economically viable since most of the car are under Tesla care for a time ( so no after-market ).
 
Where's Ford's 300+ mile EV? Where is GM's? When was the last time either one of them doubled their US sales in a year?

Tesla's sold roughly 7,860 EVs in the first two months of 2018. Over the same time period, those real manufacturers have sold about 6,515 EVs, combined.

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

I can respect that you would prioritize brake pad production over EV production. That's apparently what all the real car manufacturers are doing. My personal preference is for more EVs, even if it means brake pad availability will suffer.
:p

I'm asking about brake pads. There is nothing special about an EV pad compared to any other. Find me one other manufacture that has problems supplying brake pads.
 
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