Model S AP crashes

[drklain]

I appreciate your civil response. I don't live near any Tesla facility and purchased my car over the phone/internet. When I went to pick up the car they wouldn't even let me drive it before signing for it (despite my insistence). That was a first for any car buying experience. Also a first was paying for features that don't work yet in the hope eventually they get activated.
Perhaps I am overly trusting. I understand the AP has it's limitations, but at the $10k price tag I expect it to work safely and not veer into trucks. For someone to lecture the OP about his accident because the autopilot "is obviously just a beta" and use at your own risk is unfair. Like I said, despite having a Tesla in my garage, I have NEVER heard that it was only a beta feature.

Not to be disagreeable, but I don't think your statement is correct -- especially since you ordered your car over the internet. When you selected Autopilot as one of the features for your car, the box where you added the option specifically said:

"...That said, Enhanced Autopilot should still be considered a driver's assistance feature with the driver responsible for remaining in control of the car at all times....
Enhanced Autopilot software is expected to complete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval."
To me this clearly says in the option box you ordered that the autopilot software (not talking about FSD here) is a driver's assistance feature and people are expected to control the car and that the software is still under validation.

As others above pointed out, before ever using the software on your car, you also will have to hit "accept" that tells you the software is still in Beta (at least that is what it says with AP1.0, we don't know what it will say for AP2.0....maybe it will be out of Beta).

No question that there is nuance in what the website order form says about EAP but it to my mind it does clearly say that (a) you still need to control the car and (b) that the software is still not out of the test/validation phase.

I've posted in other threads that I do think the Tesla Owner Advisors (salespeople) and the marketing efforts don't do a great job of making it clear or laying out the limitations of Autopilot in its current state of development, but they are not the only car company that puts it's "best face forward" when marketing its products.

Not trying to belittle your opinion or reaction - it is perfectly understandable, but saying you did not know that the AP functionality still required you to maintain control of the car and that it was still in validation when you ordered is not quite accurate as (to the best of my knowledge) that language has not changed on the order site. Personally, I still think you have an incredible car that will be more capable than anything else on the road today when this software gets pushed out!

 

[oktane]

Based on that I'd assume the software will be out of beta after December. I never said anything about AP functionality and maintaining control of the car.

 

[drklain]

No disagreement that Tesla has played games in keeping the AP1 software in Beta what many would consider an excessive period of time (overr 14 months since they started selling it). My only point is that you can't say you didn't know it was still in test when you ordered it because the order page told you it was. Just like others can't say they didn't know they still had to control the car - the order page said they would have to. Unfortunately the sales demos brush over those two points....

 

[Drone Flyer]

Hardware 2 features eight cameras as well as a sonar system that doubles the range. The eight-camera system consists of three forward-facing cameras ahead of the rearview mirror, two mounted in the B-pillars, two side-rear units in the turn-signal repeaters, and a rear-facing lens above the license plate. The larger volume of information is processed via a computer capable of 12 trillion operations per second, which Musk calls “basically a supercomputer in a car.”

This is "no different" than AP1.0? I highly doubt this accident would have happened with AP2.0, once fully enabled.

Be happy with AP 1 as both systems are only designed to assist the driver.
Why on earth would you want the car to take you to your destination all by itself? Takes all the fun out of driving this wonderful car.
Might as while hop into a taxi!

 

[doubleohwhat]

Why on earth would you want the car to take you to your destination all by itself?

I don't. I enjoy driving. I just don't think the car should be attracted to trucks like a magnet when AP is engaged.

 

[HyperMiler]

Am not sure it adds to the relaxation of such a feature if unpleasant surprises loom. For my liking (30,000 mls/year), TACC modes too often copy the hectic lurching of my fellow drivers, and the ideal line often times leads close to the white line, e.g. in turns or when passing a truck I do like to stay away from. Also, watching the recent AP video, the system does work with broad assumptions not always fit to the situation. There is a reason it is shown at fast forward speed... .

 

[animorph]

The video looks a little bit like the Tesla decided to follow the truck, but was confused about where the back of the truck ended. Glad to see at least some reaction time available in this case.

 

[TodMichael65]

Hmm, I had something similar though no accident. I was westbound on I70 right before Thanksgiving about 10 miles or so from the Utah border. I had AP on. Road was well marked and no curves (there was a very gentle curve to the right if I recall) Conditions were very clear and AP was locked on and had been working flawlessly. I was in the left lane. I always drive with Hands on the wheel, at the 2 and 10 o'clock positions usually. And thank god it was at this time because out of the blue, the AP turned the wheel hard right. Not like changing lane tactic, more like a hard steer right. It yanked on the wheel under my hands and a split second later the car was several feet over the right lane marking and moving hard into the right lane. Of course that hard yank by AP disconnected itself because it ran over where my hands were holding the lane alongside it. So I was also under my control suddenly and did a quick check -- no cars around (thank god) -- and decided to move it into the right lane. However that was a major fault of AP. Had I NOT had my hands on the wheel I don't know what it would have done. Even with hands on wheel, it pulled me out of my lane without warning and against my wishes. So anyone who is out there dismissing that there is no issue, we're just "holding it wrong" -- maybe needs to have it happen to them. Note -- this was the only fault in a 3000 mile road trip that I drove mostly with AP assist.

I haven't had much issue with "truck drift" but AP around trucks makes me nervous and I am hyper aware when passing them because it should actually lean away from the truck when passing (and it knows it's a truck so it should bias distance away -- trucks can swing suddenly due to wind and 8 to 12" more away can be a big deal in avoiding any contact) -- but also when it is passing, unless trucks have the full aero guard between the 5th wheel and the trailers, the AP and especially the side collision sensors don't see anything there at all. That's really a software fault because the car knows for the most part it's approaching a truck and can see it not only in front but the radar knows it's a truck on the left or right lane beside the car. It also knows when it gets to the beginning of the trailer and the rear sensors can alert when it's past the cab. But it doesn't have anything like that in its algorithms. That leaves AP open to make lots of errors around large vehicles.

A week ago I was headed to work in my Model S and the AP pulled me into a truck driving by my side. I was driving into the sun so had the AP on to assist with my safety. Cruising along just fine until all the sudden I hear an impact and a crunch to my right. My car had pulled me into a Semi. Fortunately I had my hand on the wheel and was able to pull away from the truck before going completely under it. I was in the left lane and easily had 20-30 feet of road and shoulder before the median wall. Tesla just got back to me today and stated that AP is more of a novelty and shouldn't be used for safety and the Tesla engineers determined the AP acted exactly how it was supposed to during the crash. Has anyone else had an experience with a crash in AP. I am also curious if anyone has had success getting the AP log to see what it showed? Tesla's stance has been consistent that AP is beta and shouldn't be used for safety. I am also curious why the sales reps were so adamant about me using the AP and not touching the wheel. We coming any feedback.

 

[Mihai]

Paying attention or not, AP is trying to kill people here and Tesla doesn't seem to acknowledge it.
If they are so transparent they should come out publicly with the logs of when this happen and explain people the limitation of AP in those scenarios (I doubt there is a real structured explanation when it seems to occur only to about 1% of the trucks we pass).

I trust AP to help make my long drives less tiring and not having to fear death every time I pass a truck (which is every 30 seconds here in The Nederlands).

My 2 cents: If AP is in doubt, just keep driving straight, don't make stupid manoeuvres out of nowhere, or just disengage + chime. The way it behaves now, I have the feeling that AP is way over confident over its own capabilities.

 

[msnow]

Paying attention or not, AP is trying to kill people here and Tesla doesn't seem to acknowledge it.
If they are so transparent they should come out publicly with the logs of when this happen and explain people the limitation of AP in those scenarios (I doubt there is a real structured explanation when it seems to occur only to about 1% of the trucks we pass).

I trust AP to help make my long drives less tiring and not having to fear death every time I pass a truck (which is every 30 seconds here in The Nederlands).

My 2 cents: If AP is in doubt, just keep driving straight, don't make stupid manoeuvres out of nowhere, or just disengage + chime. The way it behaves now, I have the feeling that AP is way over confident over its own capabilities.

It happens much more than 1% of the time to me. I haven't kept records and I've learned to disengage AP when approaching trucks on my right but if I had to guess it was 20-25%.

 

[Nietschy]

The video looks a little bit like the Tesla decided to follow the truck, but was confused about where the back of the truck ended. Glad to see at least some reaction time available in this case.

If you are mentioning mine, I can assure you, it is not following the truck. It tries to change langes, but I stopped it way before. This way it looks quite unspectacular, but from past occurrences I know what to look for and take immediately action before thinking twice.

That's really a software fault because the car knows for the most part it's approaching a truck and can see it not only in front but the radar knows it's a truck on the left or right lane beside the car. It also knows when it gets to the beginning of the trailer and the rear sensors can alert when it's past the cab. But it doesn't have anything like that in its algorithms. That leaves AP open to make lots of errors around large vehicles.

I fully agree with you, the system should not be too confident. On 7.1 hat had the same problems, and I could "fix" them by disable the ultrasonic proximity sensor bubble around the car. On 8.0 now, I enabled it again and see this happening less frequently, but still way much too often to be really relaxed while driving past a truck.

In a few days from now I will drive 600 miles home and will report back with dashcam videos if I had any more of those AP hickups (if you like).

 

[Just a Reader]

The "other" story here, is why is this a $22K repair?

Right. Unless there is further damage that isn't visible on the photo, quotes like this do make me start to wonder why insurance companies are still willing to provide coverage for Teslas.

 

[Sonny Daze]

I think Elon makes each replacement body panel by hand himself (which is why people are waiting weeks/months for them).

 

[Mihai]

Autopilot tried to kill me again this evening.

Driving on a 2 line highway in Belgium late in the night, easy rain, doing about 120kph on AP.

While I was driving on second left line and overtaking a truck, the car started swerving right towards the truck at which point I tried to take over but probably corrected too much so the car went into a left right tail balance which was scary as *sugar*, I just thought I am going to die.
I was inches away from crashing into either the truck or the dividing concrete wall.

In the end I managed to bring the car to a straight line but *sugar* my pants.

I opened an incident with Tesla and hope they will have something tangible soon.

 

[msnow]

Autopilot tried to kill me again this evening.

Driving on a 2 line highway in Belgium late in the night, easy rain, doing about 120kph on AP.

While I was driving on second left line and overtaking a truck, the car started swerving right towards the truck at which point I tried to take over but probably corrected too much so the car went into a left right tail balance which was scary as *sugar*, I just thought I am going to die.
I was inches away from crashing into either the truck or the dividing concrete wall.

In the end I managed to bring the car to a straight line but *sugar* my pants.

I opened an incident with Tesla and hope they will have something tangible soon.

Light rain, 75 mph/120 kph, night, overtaking a truck. That's a prescription for disaster. Were your hands on the wheel?

 

[Nietschy]

That's a prescription for disaster. Were your hands on the wheel?

How is that disaster? That is just bad weather and a slow moving truck!

His hands make no difference in the topic here. The topic is (to fresh you up): The autopilot sometimes (2 out of 100) decides to move into a truck. That should hot happen, ever! period.

If his hands are on the wheel would make make a difference if he would say "I want Tesla to buy my broken car back for 100% of the list price". But he does not. So please stay on topic. Thank you.

 

[phaduman]

A week ago I was headed to work in my Model S and the AP pulled me into a truck driving by my side. I was driving into the sun so had the AP on to assist with my safety. Cruising along just fine until all the sudden I hear an impact and a crunch to my right. My car had pulled me into a Semi. Fortunately I had my hand on the wheel and was able to pull away from the truck before going completely under it. I was in the left lane and easily had 20-30 feet of road and shoulder before the median wall. Tesla just got back to me today and stated that AP is more of a novelty and shouldn't be used for safety and the Tesla engineers determined the AP acted exactly how it was supposed to during the crash. Has anyone else had an experience with a crash in AP. I am also curious if anyone has had success getting the AP log to see what it showed? Tesla's stance has been consistent that AP is beta and shouldn't be used for safety. I am also curious why the sales reps were so adamant about me using the AP and not touching the wheel. We coming any feedback.

I am sorry to hear about your loss. Relief that it was only property damage, and not injury. But still, I agree it hurts quite a bit as the # is large, and that your new car now goes to garage etc, and equally important that you would need to readjust your expectation of AP.

Thank you for sharing your experience, it is educating new and current owners what to expect from AP. Hopefully new owners will read this sooner than later and avoid accidents.

 

[msnow]

How is that disaster? That is just bad weather and a slow moving truck!

His hands make no difference in the topic here. The topic is (to fresh you up): The autopilot sometimes (2 out of 100) decides to move into a truck. That should hot happen, ever! period.

If his hands are on the wheel would make make a difference if he would say "I want Tesla to buy my broken car back for 100% of the list price". But he does not. So please stay on topic. Thank you.

Ok, I can see you're new to this so you are excused. "Truck lust" is a known issue and the worse the conditions (bad weather and nighttime plus speed) the odds increase exponentially. Trust me, I've been an AP user since it first came out in 2015. Your "2 out of 100" is more like 4 out of 10 on our highways....so....
Regarding hands on the wheel, the poster said he tried to take over but overcorrected and almost hit the truck. If your hands are already on the wheel the time saved means you are much less likely to have an accident. This was more likely driver error not an AP accident.

 

[KCSunshine]

I personally have had a few times that AP would drive into the lane on my right on curved highway. It only does it to the right lane, not left lane, and it only happens on left curved highway. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!

 

[Lex]

I'm sorry to hear about OP's accident.

I think the truck hugging is due to AP considering the lower line if the trailer the white road line. This confusion is increased in inclement weather and with direct sunlight. So the car is centering but in reality it's getting closer to the truck.

This is the only explanation I've heard that makes any sense for "truck lust".

That said I have thousands of miles on AP1 now and can not say I ever have specifically experienced this. I was going to suggest the heavy adoption of aero skirts on trailers here in Canada but I have a few thousand AP miles in the US too... Perhaps I've experienced "truck lust" and just took over, though. When AP wanders I just take over immediately. Trucks are big and dangerous so I am extra careful passing them, with or without AP. In fact if the conditions are right I like to zoom right by them as fast as possible. I'm sure the truckers appreciate that too as it's better to not have cars all around you if possible. A pet peeve of mine in fact is someone who sits beside a truck when they could pass, or they pass very slowly. Dangerous.

I do see "truck wanderlust" all day though -- AP works best when others keep their cars and trucks in their damn lanes !!