Each module has 444 cells, except for the 60kwh pack, in which 3 modules are missing 60 cells.
The 85kwh pack has 16 modules, 7104 cells.
The 60kwh pack has 14 modules, 6036 cells.
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Model S Battery Pack - Cost Per kWh Estimate
- Thread starter CapitalistOppressor
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The 85kwh pack has 16 modules, 7104 cells.
The 60kwh pack has 14 modules, 6036 cells.
The thing is that seems to imply 3700mAh batteries..
89000 kWh pack. 89000/6664 cells is 13,355 Wh/cell. 13,355/3.6V=3709 mAh
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What is your source? I see a few problems with this, based on what is clearly shown in the pictures.
First, I don't know if they crashed a 85kWh or a 60, but logically it should have been a superset 85kWh. The pictures clearly show both halves so it is "packed". So this is a crashed 85kWh car, or it is a 60kWh car and they are using 6664 cells at 2700mAh (65kw/6664= 9753 Wh/cell; 9753/3.6V=2700 mAh which is interesting...)
Physically there is no way I can see a car could even have 16 modules. Where would the other 2 go? This picture shows the whole bottoms "sled" of the car and its filled up. Also, if there is 444 cells per module, since there is CLEARLY 7 rows/module, 444 requires that there be 63 (and a fraction) cells per row. Count them in the picture and try to get to 63 or 64, there is just no way; it is more than that. I might be off by one since the picture gets fuzzy at the edges, but its too many to be 63 or 64.
You don't have to take my word for it, go peel the top off a pack and count them yourself. It's really hard to determine the cell count from the low resolution pics in the above link. The two extra Modules of the 85kwh pack go in the front hump.
SebastianR
Active Member
Ok, I wanted to clarify a few things. Yes, it was a 60kWh car, thanks for pointing that out. And I maintain that it seems that their is a *capacity* for as many as 68*7*16=7616 cells, but as the cars are built now they are partially populated with dummy/spacers so you can't actually count the cells in that photo, which is remarkably smart or lucky of TM. If using 3700mAh that is 101kWh. So all this talk of 110kWh model S variants might be outside of the realm of what's possible?
I'm not sure where you are getting 89 kWh. I'm thinking 85000 / 7104 = 11.97
11.97 / 3.8 volts = 3150 mAh
Nothing says the nominal voltage has to be 3.6 volts or 3.7 volts.
I think CO was assuming a 85kWh pack would have 89kWh of capacity for secret reserve and other margin, so I was using that. As for the voltage, I was going off of the Panasonic specs. Agree the cell parametrics is a wildcard for pack building. I was merely trying to see if we could learn anything new from the pictures.
I don't know if this was posted elsewhere but it is obviously relevant to this thread. This article is from February.
Battery guru: Future of 18650 cells unclear beyond Tesla S - SAE International
It has this very interesting quote:
"Battery supplier sources who spoke anonymously estimate Tesla’s cell cost per kW·h to be less than $160."
Battery guru: Future of 18650 cells unclear beyond Tesla S - SAE International
It has this very interesting quote:
"Battery supplier sources who spoke anonymously estimate Tesla’s cell cost per kW·h to be less than $160."
This guy is very funny -- on the one hand, he claims that Tesla's cost advantage using the 18650 as "eroded" while acknowledging that Tesla's battery cost is half of any other auto OEM. If that's erosion, bring on more!
Zzzz...
Member
Well, there was mentioning somewhere that spot prices for 18650 cells on Asian market were in $160-$180 price range per kWh at the end of 2012. But I seriously doubt that Tesla currently pay anything less than $190 per kWh (limited number of suppliers capable of producing cells in volume, strict quality control requirements).
On the other hand he is correct, form factor have minimal impact on price per kWh beyond certain point of mass production volume. Nissan produce it own cells, and Nissan probably see prices per kWh that are very close to what Tesla is paying. Large format cells are even cheaper in huge production volumes, not significantly but still.
Price advantage of Tesla was mostly defined by lack of incentive for major automakers to press li-ion suppliers for a good price - they do not cares about compliance EVs anyway. Only company that care about EV, Nissan started it own li-ion manufacturing.
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Here some relative comparison chart from Navigant, take it with a grain of salt:
Yes, but two things. First, that was 2012. These anonymous sources may be talking about the most recently signed contract with Panasonic which extends into 2017. Second, this source is the closest to the people who would actually know that I have seen. The harder thing to know is exactly how far behind other automakers are with their large format cells.
Assuming they are talking a 30%+ reduction off this price for the Gigafactory it is interesting to note the price is $100/kwh. So an 80 kwh pack for the Gen III would cost only $8,000 in cells and maybe $10,500 overall depending on what pack integration really costs. That would be a better range than the Model S achieves today. I'm sure that would not be the base model but at scale I think they can realize a very healthy margin on that car.
Zzzz...
Member
Well, that "less than $160" is definitely more believable estimate in comparison with "Tesla is paying around $250 per kWh" I saw not so long ago... Hope it is true
But there are customs duty rates on top.
But there are customs duty rates on top.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Panasonic running factories at full capacity lowers cost plus Tesla does not need individual fire suppression in each individual battery cell. Further lower cost.
Nissan does not manufacture its own cells, it assembles cells from components it buys from suppliers.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Since Nissan is using a chemistry that's maybe half the energy density, which means twice as much material per kWh, I doubt they are near what Tesla is paying.
Zzzz...
Member
Well same could be said about Panasonic. Cathode and anode materials, electrolyte and separator are usually acquired from suppliers. Think about companies like Asahi Kasei, BASF etc. Even if Panasonic is more vertically integrated that does not automatically translates into substantial savings, but sure helps.
Well LiCoO2 is still one of the cheapest li-ion chemistries around with ~170 Wh/kg on cell level. And IIRC Nissan is using some sort of manganese spinel. Which potentially could be even cheaper. Sure depends on volume, but it would be wrong to say that less dense chemistries are more expensive. Think lead acid batteries - even more "material per kWh".
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Lead acid is of course a completely different technology, but if you add in cost per cycle per kWh Tesla's NCA should still come out ahead.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Panasonic is not traditionally vertically integrated nor does it have the same relationship with its suppliers that Nissan has with battery suppliers.
Panasonic suppliers are part of their Keiretsu, part of the industrial group with cross shareholders with Panasonic being the dominant partner. They move in unison and make long term plans together.
Nissan does not have that same relationship with its battery suppliers.
I know this traditional system is breaking down at the lower value added segments of manufacturing but I think this concept still applies to Panasonic. It not only matters to cost but also increasing volume.
I am sure Renault having a controlling interest in Nissan does not help Nissan executives manage the waters of Japanese industry.
how would envision that relationship in the GF? The suppliers would potentially be outside of the Keiretsu. Perhaps that's one of the hurdles to cover with Panasonic- lots of new ways of doing manufacturing and business they aren't accustomed to?
Zzzz...
Member
QUOTE: Argonne’s NMC formulation is significantly cheaper, for instance, than Elon Musk’s NCA batteries. NCA costs $60 per kilowatt hour compared with $45 for Argonne’s NMC, he said.
Interesting estimate of cathode material cost of Tesla cells per kWh. Cathode material is the most high tech component of the cell and a major cost driver.
Can the world’s most promising electric-car battery be saved?
Interesting estimate of cathode material cost of Tesla cells per kWh. Cathode material is the most high tech component of the cell and a major cost driver.
Can the world’s most promising electric-car battery be saved?
That's right in line with what Elon said earlier this year of a "magic wand" price of $60-70/kwh for their current chemistry based on what it would cost to buy raw materials at London Metal Exchange prices. Of course, Elon's lowering even that absolute price floor by looking to deal directly with metal mining companies and optimizing logistics.
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