Model S catches fire in France-8/2016

[KZKZ]

What makes Tesla's more fire prone than other EVs on the market?

Why don't other EVs have these fire problems?

 

[Drivin]

And it probably happens a lot. But since it's not a Tesla or owned by Dick van Dyke, it's not considered news.

I really doubt "it happens a lot" that brand new cars go on fire as they are being test driven.

If it did, car salespeople would be demanding hazard pay or they would be wearing flame resistant clothing.

Lastly, there is no evidence that this is a brand new Jag that he just drove off the lot, so the comparison is not relevant.

 

[Drivin]

How do you know that the average of ICE cars on the road that catch on fire isn't 2 weeks old? If you have statistics to say otherwise, please back that up. Otherwise it's meaningless to compare car age.

Seriously?
Tesla is comparing their performance with the rest of the cars on the road.
The average car on the road is 11 years old.
This car wasn't even sold - it was being test driven.
If you honestly believe that is a valid comparison and you believe that there is no correlation between the age of a car and the reliability of a car, then I have no more responses for you.

Besides, if the average car fire on a new ICE happened when the car was 2 weeks old, people probably wouldn't buy cars and that would be all over the news: "Don't take a test drive in that new Ford, GM, Toyota, without wearing flame resistant clothing".

 

[Yggdrasill]

What makes Tesla's more fire prone than other EVs on the market?

Why don't other EVs have these fire problems?

Well, to start off, the Model S definitely isn't the worst when it comes to fires. For instance, the Renault Kangoos with NiCad batteries have regularly been going up in flames for years. Probably something like 80% of the BEV fires here in Norway have been the Kangoos.

Now, when it comes to modern li-ion BEVs, the Model S ranks pretty high on the number of fires. There are three important reasons for this. One, the Model S is the second most sold BEV in the world. With more cars on the road, there will be more fires. Two, Tesla has placed the battery at the bottom of the car, for best utilization of the space, and a low center of gravity. The BMW i3 is the only other BEV with this today. With a more exposed pack, damage is more likely. Tree, Tesla uses the most energy dense batteries on the market, NCA. This is choice that's not without compromises - the batteries are more prone to fire than the chosen battery tech of the other car companies. (This has most significance in the event of damage to the battery pack.)

There's also some other smaller reasons why the Model S is more likely to catch fire. The Model S is the only BEV that can output 500 kW and charge at 130 kW. More power means more heat, more heat mens greater risk of fire. Tesla is also really trying to push the limits when it comes to compactness of the drivetrain. Less room means greater risk of fire.

Now, the Model S definitely isn't the only li-ion BEV that's caught fire. Here's an i-MiEV after it was hit by a train:

 

[Jeff N]

Now, when it comes to modern li-ion BEVs, the Model S ranks pretty high on the number of fires. There are three important reasons for this. One, the Model S is the second most sold BEV in the world. With more cars on the road, there will be more fires. Two, Tesla has placed the battery at the bottom of the car, for best utilization of the space, and a low center of gravity. The BMW i3 is the only other BEV with this today. With a more exposed pack, damage is more likely

The number one selling BEV is the Nissan LEAF with nearly twice as many cars sold than the Model S (228,000 vs 129,000 as of June 2016). The LEAF has its battery pack under the car but has been involved in almost no fires.

 

[techmaven]

What makes Tesla's more fire prone than other EVs on the market?

Why don't other EVs have these fire problems?

Who says they don't?

BMW i3 fire in Poland:

Nissan Leaf fire:

Search Nissan Leaf fire and there are a bunch.

Simply, Tesla news is big news. Other cars, not so much.

 

[S'toon]

There was also a fire in a garage in Toronto Canada, I never did hear any form of conclusion on it. At the time there was a lot of speculation that it might not have even been Tesla related despite all the media. (it was a RWD vehicle, and all the damage was right up near the front end, and the ?lexus? parked beside it looked to have at least as much (or more) damage.

Basically though, Tesla fires get media attention because it's new and exciting. People are afraid of "different" and will always blow the risks way out of proportion. This isn't even a case of vehicle specific risk either. More people die in swimming pools than of shark attacks, but many people are more worried about the later than the former. We could also talk about the whole "terrorism" thing and how many people have died that way vs any number of other causes of death (and the resultant allocation of government resources)

As for vehicle fires themselves and ICE vs EV. We do know that fire risk goes up with age and with lack of maintenance, we also know the current numbers are something like 5 times less likely in an EV. When you combine the two, I bet you'd find that over the long run the EVs end up only 2-3 times less likely to burn than an ICE vehicle. but those are still odds I'll happily be on the right side of.

That said, it's inevitable. Moving a large heavy vehicle long distances takes a lot of energy, being able to accelerate in a reasonable amount of time, or charge in a reasonable amount of time, both require the ability to transfer large amounts of energy quickly, There is no possible way to have those abilities without some risk. (Despite various press releases to the contrary)

Just be glad we're not talking HFCV... just wait until one of those levels a city block, then we can talk about how safe various technologies are.

I know of the Toronto story because a troll on CBC posted it as "proof" that Teslas spontaneously catch on fire. Nowhere did it say that the Tesla was the cause of the fire.

 

[deonb]

The average car on the road is 11 years old.
This car wasn't even sold - it was being test driven.

If you honestly believe that is a valid comparison and you believe that there is no correlation between the age of a car and the reliability of a car, then I have no more responses for you.

Do you have proof that says this, or are you just going by gut feel?

 

[KZKZ]

Who says they don't?

Search Nissan Leaf fire and there are a bunch.

Simply, Tesla news is big news. Other cars, not so much.

I couldn't find one Nissan Leaf that burned during a test drive. Can you please post the link? If this is such a common issue, it should be easy to find.

I couldn't find any Chevy Volt fires, other than the one used in crash testing. You would think an ICE + EV would be even more likely to have fires, but so far the Volt seems to be less fire prone than the Model-S despite having sold more than the Model S.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The number one selling BEV is the Nissan LEAF with nearly twice as many cars sold than the Model S (228,000 vs 129,000 as of June 2016). The LEAF has its battery pack under the car but has been involved in almost no fires.

I suspect there are plenty of Leaf fires that have happened, they just don't go reported. So far I am certain that every single Tesla fire had made headlines, but not so for other EVs. If I remember correctly two were from high speed accidents (a Leaf seems less likely to be involved in such crashes given the lack of sportiness).

Also, two of the Tesla fires are from debris puncture and the ride height of the vehicle has a lot to do with that (Tesla issued a ride height update to address this as well as a new shield). Before the update I believe ground clearance was 5.2 inches (and 6 inches after). Leaf is 6.3 inches. Tesla's battery is not only under the car, but also swappable (which is unique other than the Better Place cars).

 

[Grendal]

In general, I am not seeing this as anything other than what happens to all cars both ICE and EV. You are storing lots of energy in both and invariably something can happen to cause that energy to escape creating a fire. Some thought EVs would be immune and we are discovering that they are not. The main difference is that EVs allow enough time for the occupants to exit the vehicle before the fire becomes deadly. ICE's are well known to immolate very quickly, without enough warning and occupants are more likely killed as a result.

 

[Jeff N]

I suspect there are plenty of Leaf fires that have happened, they just don't go reported.

Yes, the LEAF rides a little higher and drivers are apt to go slower.

As of this November, 2015 article there was apparently only one suspicious Nissan LEAF fire widely known (the one in Texas that @techmaven embedded above):

Nissan Leaf car fires

Tesla's battery is not only under the car, but also swappable

How is that relevant?

I'm not claiming that Tesla cars are an unusual fire hazard. I haven't seen evidence for that.

 

[PRJIM]

Yes, the LEAF rides a little higher and drivers are apt to go slower.

As of this November, 2015 article there was apparently only one suspicious Nissan LEAF fire widely known (the one in Texas that @techmaven embedded above):

Nissan Leaf car fires


How is that relevant?

I'm not claiming that Tesla cars are an unusual fire hazard. I haven't seen evidence for that.

how do you know that the fires are caused by the HV battery? Could have started from the lv battery systems. Most of the MS fires that we have seen have started from the HV battery pack.

 

[CatB]

I know of the Toronto story because a troll on CBC posted it as "proof" that Teslas spontaneously catch on fire. Nowhere did it say that the Tesla was the cause of the fire.

Wasn't that the fire that was caused by faulty wiring in the garage - and then Tesla released a software update to reduce amperage when it detects power fluctuations that indicate there might be danger? Iow, Tesla didn't cause it, wasn't responsible for it, but fixed it anyway.

 

[2virgule5]

One would need to compare fire incidents to the number of a given car on the road weighted by their age and miles driven to make a valid conclusion on this, something that regulators and car safety agencies in many countries are actually doing. It is certainly impressive to watch but no more than the few cars or trucks burning on the side of the road that I see in a single year (I do have a long commute).

Clearly, some are well known in TMC forums - including this thread - to stir up any possible negative news for Tesla and generate as many FUDs as possible, 'cause their agenda is to bring the share price down. Therefore it's unlikely that the best laid out argument will have any impact

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, the LEAF rides a little higher and drivers are apt to go slower.

As of this November, 2015 article there was apparently only one suspicious Nissan LEAF fire widely known (the one in Texas that @techmaven embedded above):

Nissan Leaf car fires

I didn't even know that fire happened that the one was not reported on national news as far as I can tell.

Googling, I found another Leaf fire that was later found to be from the external EVSE:
Feds Probe 2013 Nissan Leaf Fire Traced to Charger | Edmunds.com

How is that relevant?

I'm not claiming that Tesla cars are an unusual fire hazard. I haven't seen evidence for that.

The swappable point is a proxy to saying that the pack must be exposed to the outside and can't be behind a structural member or some other external sheet metal covering it up. That makes far more likely to be the point of first contact during a debris hit.

 

[Az_Rael]

I couldn't find one Nissan Leaf that burned during a test drive. Can you please post the link? If this is such a common issue, it should be easy to find.

I couldn't find any Chevy Volt fires, other than the one used in crash testing. You would think an ICE + EV would be even more likely to have fires, but so far the Volt seems to be less fire prone than the Model-S despite having sold more than the Model S.

There was a Chevy Volt fire that was posted to the GM-Volt forums. The guy was rear-ended but the car was drivable, so he drove it home. The car later caught fire in his garage several hours after being parked. GM took possession of the totaled car for an investigation and determined the 12V battery (in the rear hatch) had been damaged in the crash, then sparked at some point and caught the cargo floor carpet on fire. There was then a recall issued to replace the cargo floor carpets with less flammable ones, as I recall.

Edit, my memory was incorrect, the fire happened shortly after the accident. Old School Battery Tech Causes Chevrolet Volt Fire

 

[efusco]

I couldn't find one Nissan Leaf that burned during a test drive. Can you please post the link? If this is such a common issue, it should be easy to find.

I couldn't find any Chevy Volt fires, other than the one used in crash testing. You would think an ICE + EV would be even more likely to have fires, but so far the Volt seems to be less fire prone than the Model-S despite having sold more than the Model S.

Like "during a test drive" is relevant? Did you check for Nissan Leafs that caught fire on a Monday? Or on the same stretch of road? These incidence are all very rare, I think we're up to a total of 2 Tesla's that have unexplained spontaneous fire issues--the one in Norway was it, and this most recent one. 3 others all involved collisions and 2 of those were to the underbody by road debris and a fix was found in a few weeks and there have been no recurrences.

So, your premise is flawed, your bias is naked and exposed and you have no data to support your contention.

 

[2virgule5]

I can find another example of volt fire with my phone in 10 sec, like here:

Chevrolet Volt Consumed By Fire, Burns To A Crisp - Cause Unknown

Does not make the Volt an unsafe vehicle.

Btw both the Volt and model S got 100.000 sales end of last year (ww), and since then more Tesla on the road than Volt.

 

[Electroman]

Some folks go to a great extent to throw FUD on Tesla.

Otherwise why would KZKZ would mention 'fire on a test drive' ?

While we are at it, why don't we throw an additional detail, 'fire on a test drive on a Monday'. Tesla loses hands down in that scenario.