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Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

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I agree with mods (suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, aero, electronics) it could be good given its power. But this is quite different than what comes from Tesla.
Agreed - I think of it in terms of $ instead of the number of mods. Took about $20k to really make the Model 3 fun on a track, and even then the issues with the modeled temperatures limit the fun to a lap or two. I think this will be cheaper (depending on what we figure out about shocks, oem vs motorsport etc.) to mod but of course the price of the car is over double to start.

I'd love to see a carbon overwrapped motor version of the 3 with the upgraded cooling etc. that can run a 20 minute session at 600-800 hp and less than 3500 lbs. I think we will be waiting a while though so we have to play with what we have!
 
Well sure, a prepped Miata or S2000 are far better but what makes a car “good” for the track?
Not weighing 5000lbs for a start. Weight creates huge problems on track. Having 1000+hp makes those problems exponentially worse.

A good track car allows a driver to learn, practice, and ultimately play with car control at the limits in a fun and accessible way. The lowest track times and most fun happen in braking zones and cornering. 5000lbs is a rathole of a problem in both those areas, and when the limits are exceeded, 5000lbs has bigger consequences.
 
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Agreed - I think of it in terms of $ instead of the number of mods. Took about $20k to really make the Model 3 fun on a track, and even then the issues with the modeled temperatures limit the fun to a lap or two. I think this will be cheaper (depending on what we figure out about shocks, oem vs motorsport etc.) to mod but of course the price of the car is over double to start.

I'd love to see a carbon overwrapped motor version of the 3 with the upgraded cooling etc. that can run a 20 minute session at 600-800 hp and less than 3500 lbs. I think we will be waiting a while though so we have to play with what we have!
Agree. When I first autocrossed my M3P in stock form, I thought it was crappy. But coilovers, front and rear control arms, and 18x10.5 wheels with 285s all around transformed the car into being great at autocross.

The Plaid has very good track potential, too. I see Brakes and the lack of any Track mode as killers right now. It doesn't seems to want to put power down if there is any rotation. I can get the Model 3 as set up now to rotate nicely even when not using Track mode.

The battery range and the fact they seems to have solved the issue where the power is fairly stable even at low charge rates, is a step in the right direction.
 
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Agree. When I first autocrossed my M3P in stock form, I thought it was crappy. But coilovers, front and rear control arms, and 18x10.5 wheels with 285s all around transformed the car into being great at autocross.

The Plaid has very good potential, too. I see Brakes and the lack of any Track mode as killers right now. It doesn't seems to want to put power down if there is any rotation. I can get the Model 3 as se up now to rotate nicely even when not using Track mode.
What is the potential you see?
 
What is the potential you see?

A dual purpose daily driven family car that you could put on put on bigger wheels/tires ands take to a road coarse and set some fast laps.

Although with the weight and battery, it likely would be better in a time attack like scenario with one warm up lap, 3 hot laps and one cool down lap.

If you want a dedicated road course car, this would not be the car to get. But I doubt anyone is buying it for that.
 
Ah, I see. I've been down the dual purpose car path before. Starts out fun. Ends with a dedicated track car. Or a divorce. Sometimes both.

I'm kidding! Ends with a Porsche. Sometimes the Porsche causes a divorce. Different topic...

I would not consider a Porsche a dedicated track car. My GT3 with full spherical bushings, high rate springs, long tube headers, running Hoosiers is still a street car by nature.

A radical or a Wolf GB08 would be good dedicated track car.
 
I have no car experience on track, just 2 wheel club racing. Lightweight twins class with a Suzuki SV650 is a far better experience and learning platform than a liter bike. 1000cc great for the street, way too much on the track for mere mortals.

Impossible to get a newbie to understand that. Everyone thinks they’re Superman until their first day out when they are out of breath on lap 1 and same lap time as a 250 Ninja. I imagine cars are similar which is why I mentioned Miata.

Modified Plaid will be a thing for some just like a Ducati Panigale. Difficult to get anywhere near its potential and expensive as hell to operate.
 
I have no car experience on track, just 2 wheel club racing. Lightweight twins class with a Suzuki SV650 is a far better experience and learning platform than a liter bike. 1000cc great for the street, way too much on the track for mere mortals.

Impossible to get a newbie to understand that. Everyone thinks they’re Superman until their first day out when they are out of breath on lap 1 and same lap time as a 250 Ninja. I imagine cars are similar which is why I mentioned Miata.

Modified Plaid will be a thing for some just like a Ducati Panigale. Difficult to get anywhere near its potential and expensive as hell to operate.
Miata on a full size track fits only very patient people who don't mind reading a phone between turns.

But Plaid is not good for the dual purpose car, I believe. It's too big, too heavy, too soft and too unbalanced on power vs brakes. It's just a proper Gran Turismo car - fast on a highway, comfortable, spacious. Roadster should become ultimate dual use for small family with money. Model 3 RS (or even Model 2 RS) for a full size one. And with enough skills and money literally anything could be built to be a fast track car.

None of the Tesla's built like a Porsche - that with a small changes of tires, pads and alignment you can beat them until the tank is empty. I hope they would recognize a demand for such cars eventually, but, business wise that won't happen before they will satisfy all higher demand customers, so it's years and years of waiting. In the meantime, m3p is a good platform with a need for a firmware update to use actual temperatures instead of predicted ones.

And returning to rotors subject - airflow doesn't matter. What matters is actual heat capacity to survive a single high speed full torque braking and heat dissipation power comparable to average motor power. Weight doesn't matter actually. Lower air resistance makes things worse. Better corner traction makes things easier.

When rotor is hotter it dissipates heat faster. On a stand it's possible to model heat dissipation vs temperature and check that at required power it won't be so hot that it would boil fluid or melt pads before battery is empty. I have a feeling most brake kit developers aren't bothering with doing actual r&d for the specific car.

At the same time, my gut feeling tells me that it's not even remotely possible to not overheat any Plaid brakes with natural air cooling. It's 4 times higher average power of m3p and I overheat 400x36 Brembo CCB on m3p before I overheat battery or tires. Iron rotors same size would do better, but not too much. And 420mm won't dissipate significantly more anyway. Certainly, I'm braking too much, because I'm not good enough and don't feather them, but with a proper setup it shouldn't matter.

Before on EVO race car that was 3x less average power we had to use 4" diameter front air ducts. And it was massively dumping speed to air. 3x higher power needs 3x higher heat dissipation power and regen is not much of the help. Making car lighter can help brakes with ducts - because higher average speed of air. Better aero also helps - more dumping heat to the air and higher corner speed.
 
I would say though, and I have been modifying street cars for over 20 years for track use, that any platform has its limits. In most cases, there is no point in sinking a lot of dollars modifying a car, and you can buy something else that would be better and faster out of the box.

When the Subaru STI came out in 2004, I sunk a horrific amount of money into it to try to make it into a 600 whp Road course car. I quickly learned that it was a stupid idea. I have eventually just bought a C6 Z06, put on Penskes/Brembos and Hoosiers and it was enormously faster and reliable.

The same goes for the Plaid. A few suspension mods, and fix the brakes and see how it goes. I have only had it for 2 weeks, but it is a great daily driver, and there is no point in ruining it for a few track days.

My current plan is to fix the brakes, put on upper front control arms for camber, and bigger wheels/tires. I may consider the upcoming Unplugged Bilstein shocks that keep all the factory functions as long as it still rides nice on the street.
 
I think we are all on the same page, lol.

I’m going square 285 on 20’s all around. Yep, that’s not enough tire but I’m going the “Miata” route. A little slip will make things more fun, especially if a square setup makes that slip more neutral. Hopefully. We will see.

I’m also going to look for better brake pads but I’m not going full track pads. I don’t have the patience to swap pads for events anymore and I’m not willing to live with poor cold performance and tons of squeal/dust on the street. It won’t be hard to do better than stock. Combine better fluid and smart brake usage and it’ll make it through a full 20-25 min track session.

A future track mode will make things more fun on track. But fun isn’t going to equal fast. I’m sure I can eke out a single fast lap on this kind of setup but I’d rather have fun for multiple full sessions over the course of a weekend. It’ll take some thoughtful car management which wouldn’t be fun on a regular basis but as a one-off… worth it.

I still think the weight and power will kill a full set of tires and brake pads in a single weekend. And that will be the only weekend I track the Plaid, lol. Rational expectations make all the difference.

After that it goes back to street duty, hopefully with some happy memories, and I go back to fun cars on track with far better smiles per dollar ratios.
 
I think we are all on the same page, lol.

I’m going square 285 on 20’s all around. Yep, that’s not enough tire but I’m going the “Miata” route. A little slip will make things more fun, especially if a square setup makes that slip more neutral. Hopefully. We will see.

I’m also going to look for better brake pads but I’m not going full track pads. I don’t have the patience to swap pads for events anymore and I’m not willing to live with poor cold performance and tons of squeal/dust on the street. It won’t be hard to do better than stock. Combine better fluid and smart brake usage and it’ll make it through a full 20-25 min track session.

A future track mode will make things more fun on track. But fun isn’t going to equal fast. I’m sure I can eke out a single fast lap on this kind of setup but I’d rather have fun for multiple full sessions over the course of a weekend. It’ll take some thoughtful car management which wouldn’t be fun on a regular basis but as a one-off… worth it.

I still think the weight and power will kill a full set of tires and brake pads in a single weekend. And that will be the only weekend I track the Plaid, lol. Rational expectations make all the difference.

After that it goes back to street duty, hopefully with some happy memories, and I go back to fun cars on track with far better smiles per dollar ratios.
I agree with all of this, but I wouldnt say it isnt going to be fast. Its a point and shoot car with insane acceleration.

In completely stock form, with crappy brakes, massive understeer, crappy track tires and the computer nannying the whole thing, Randy Probst got within a second of a 991 GT3 at Willow Springs. Eliminate some of these issues, and I expect there will be very fast lap times, at least for a few. And yes the weight will kill tires and brakes. I would like to try to fix some stuff and try it out. It still makes it a massively fun street car.

If it sucks, back to a daily driver. I just got a Mclaren 720S spider a week before the plaid. All it needs is iron rotors to save the insane priced rotors and it would be a better dual purpose track car.
 
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I think we are all on the same page, lol.

I’m going square 285 on 20’s all around. Yep, that’s not enough tire but I’m going the “Miata” route. A little slip will make things more fun, especially if a square setup makes that slip more neutral. Hopefully. We will see.

I’m also going to look for better brake pads but I’m not going full track pads. I don’t have the patience to swap pads for events anymore and I’m not willing to live with poor cold performance and tons of squeal/dust on the street. It won’t be hard to do better than stock. Combine better fluid and smart brake usage and it’ll make it through a full 20-25 min track session.

A future track mode will make things more fun on track. But fun isn’t going to equal fast. I’m sure I can eke out a single fast lap on this kind of setup but I’d rather have fun for multiple full sessions over the course of a weekend. It’ll take some thoughtful car management which wouldn’t be fun on a regular basis but as a one-off… worth it.

I still think the weight and power will kill a full set of tires and brake pads in a single weekend. And that will be the only weekend I track the Plaid, lol. Rational expectations make all the difference.

After that it goes back to street duty, hopefully with some happy memories, and I go back to fun cars on track with far better smiles per dollar ratios.

run the car in sport mode if you don't want to trash the tires and brakes... that's more power than a Tycan turbo S 🤣
 
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Not sure how a Tesla MS Plaid oem brakes discussion turned into a MS Plaid tracking thread? Anyhow, my RB brakes are certainly better than oem rotors & pads for the street; the difference is significant. I have no idea about performance on the track as I use my MS Plaid as a DD and won't ever track the vehicle.
 
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Not sure how a Tesla MS Plaid oem brakes discussion turned into a MS Plaid tracking thread? Anyhow, my RB brakes are certainly better than oem rotors & pads for the street; the difference is significant. I have no idea about performance on the track as I use my MS Plaid as a DD and won't ever track the vehicle.

Similarly, I have other vehicles for track if I want to, but with kids, family, and career and so much more increased responsibility now adays in all 3 area, I just want the plaid to have solid brakes (which looks like iron rotors and potentially upgraded caliper setup). I just want this to be a fun DD that has a crap ton of technology in it. I'll save track days (if I ever do it again) to motorcycles and "slower" track oriented cars that I already have.

Anyways...for track...I loved passing guys in much slower machines. similar to @lbowroom ...using an SV650 and passing guys on the track in their ducati 999's or GXSR750, 600s, which way more fun and gave me a huge smile. Cars now adays have too much power if it's for the track....what happened to the good ol' days of an e30 or e36 m3 on the track!
 
Similarly, I have other vehicles for track if I want to, but with kids, family, and career and so much more increased responsibility now adays in all 3 area, I just want the plaid to have solid brakes (which looks like iron rotors and potentially upgraded caliper setup). I just want this to be a fun DD that has a crap ton of technology in it. I'll save track days (if I ever do it again) to motorcycles and "slower" track oriented cars that I already have.

Anyways...for track...I loved passing guys in much slower machines. similar to @lbowroom ...using an SV650 and passing guys on the track in their ducati 999's or GXSR750, 600s, which way more fun and gave me a huge smile. Cars now adays have too much power if it's for the track....what happened to the good ol' days of an e30 or e36 m3 on the track!
Racing Brake (RB) lightweight drilled/slotted rotors (same size as oem) & higher performance street pads...

sflgator RB brake rotors & pads.jpg
 
Not sure how a Tesla MS Plaid oem brakes discussion turned into a MS Plaid tracking thread? Anyhow, my RB brakes are certainly better than oem rotors & pads for the street; the difference is significant. I have no idea about performance on the track as I use my MS Plaid as a DD and won't ever track the vehicle.
I don’t know about everyone else but for me it’s because I’m looking for realistic braking improvements.

Some of the vendors are trying to pass off their product as “track proven” with uninformed anecdotal testimonials.

An informed track performance conversation helps separate out the chaff.
 
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