Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[MountainPass]

At least don't buy xt910, 970 is better for street on Tesla's.

But I wouldn't buy RB rotors - bolts are expensive and disposable after track use. Also, slots on rotors make heavy grunt noise at braking. Calipers are too soft and bend way too much under pressure. And then customer service horrible by design. Reviewers who praise complete loss of any fade should let us know if they paid a full price for upgrade...

I'm quite certain that rotors are too small even with improved venting, so we need forced air, water cooling and largest possible rotors with proper AP/Brembo/ST calipers.

I use UP CCB now on m3p - it's much less dust, much better feel vs stock, but looking at my temperature on the track - this exact samr 400mm combination is not good enough for Plaid. Large track would put 3-4x heat energy in brakes on Plaid vs m3p.

It's also important to know - CCB have much lower heat capacity at the same size and much worse ventilation, so they get stupid hot and overheat calipers by radiation and boil fluid. It's not only about price - unless you have high pressure forced air, carbon brake are just worse than gray cast iron by all performance measures.

Thanks for always providing quality unbiased feedback! Most don't realize the weaknesses of carbon ceramics and just assume they are gospel due to the cost.

Their main benefit is weight reduction, and certainly heat dissipation and system overheating is a major challenge.

 

[lolachampcar]

Unplugged Performance is now directly authorized for Tesla vehicle service and body repair - Unplugged Performance

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I thought this an interesting development in the Tesla world

 

[oktane]

First impressions are that stock brakes seem adequate but not confidence inspiring. With aggressive driving, a more than typical amount of brake pedal application is required to slow the car than most high end sports cars.

I haven’t pushed the car enough to run out of brakes, but I’d worry that one day I might even in daily use as an aggressive driver.

 

[Mash]

Thanks for always providing quality unbiased feedback! Most don't realize the weaknesses of carbon ceramics and just assume they are gospel due to the cost.

Their main benefit is weight reduction, and certainly heat dissipation and system overheating is a major challenge.

Done get me wrong, UP CCB is a very good Brembo based kit - it's light-years above m3p stock Brembo. From the looks, pads and calipers are larger than stock Plaid and they are certainly better CT compound than stock. So for street use they would be an upgrade and with ducted air might work very well on the track. But from pure heat management perspective - their European version Buy UNPLUGGED PERFORMANCE UP-M3MY-317-4.1 Front Big Brake 6 Piston Kit, UP x PFC 394mm Iron Rotors, Race Pads TESLA Model 3/Y with the same size PFC iron rotors, it would outperform carbon rotors for lower price. And since UP made a caliper mounts for Plaid, they should be able now to make iron kit as well.

 

[Richbot]

Lighter rotors are good for handling, but not handling heat. Drilling and slotting used to be useful with old pad compounds that suffered a lot of outgassing. Not really an issue with modern pads.

For the rotors to handle heat better there are only two solutions... more mass (bigger and/or wider and hence heavier) so they can absorb more heat, and cooling (vanes and air ducts, etc) so they can dissipate heat faster. I forget if the RB rotor is larger or not.

Ceramic rotors can be lighter and handle more heat simply because the whole system (carbon rotors and pads) can operate at high temps than conventional rotors, pads, etc.

Mass in the ring matters...but airflow is king -a bigger diameter rotor is a bigger induced draft fan, that's the engineering reason behind going big, along with a bigger lever, the mass is just sortof a side benefit (you can see this in action with some of the wacky friction rings various oem hot-version brakes have used in the past, 2" wide faces with big open hats and such). The RB (and every other good aftermarket two piece rotor's friction ring) is much more efficient at this than most OEM applications because the center is more open and the vanes are better optimized for airflow rather than cost and manufacturing. It doesn't matter how big and heavy your rotors are, if they can't dissipate through airflow and radiation with 1000hp you're gonna french fry when you should have pizzad and end up in a corner worker station. I mean, shoot, just look at those pics SFLgator posted vs. a stock rotor. Where does the air go on a stock rotor? Nowhere, that's where

Which brings me back to...why tf doesn't the Plaid have brake ducts

Also, you can take weight out of an iron friction ring and still make it perform better because of that airflow thing, even if it's ostensibly the "same size". Bigger gap between the oreo cookies, better-designed frosting (vanes), cleaner machining as opposed to rough casting flash everywhere...sometimes subtraction is addition. And in the case of the stock Plaid brakes, which are a cheap, if large, one-piece iron rotor with a closed "hat", there are weight loss benefits just in going to a billet hat, which is where most off the weight came out when I upgraded my car anyway...the rings are actually probably slightly heavier than the oem friction rings, but on my car the stock ones are press-fit into a semi-floating setup and you have to use a dremel if you want to know how much everything weighs individually...

 

[Richbot]

I meant to say NASCAR not porsche...lol brain bit flip

my point was, if mass is such a big deal, we'd be using solid 40mm thick iron flywheel-rotors to stop high-powered cars, and just live with the accel consequences if we wanted to stop fast...but windmills do not work that way...it's a series of interconnected compromises

 

[Gninoked]

Mass in the ring matters...but airflow is king -a bigger diameter rotor is a bigger induced draft fan, that's the engineering reason behind going big, along with a bigger lever, the mass is just sortof a side benefit (you can see this in action with some of the wacky friction rings various oem hot-version brakes have used in the past, 2" wide faces with big open hats and such). The RB (and every other good aftermarket two piece rotor's friction ring) is much more efficient at this than most OEM applications because the center is more open and the vanes are better optimized for airflow rather than cost and manufacturing. It doesn't matter how big and heavy your rotors are, if they can't dissipate through airflow and radiation with 1000hp you're gonna french fry when you should have pizzad and end up in a corner worker station. I mean, shoot, just look at those pics SFLgator posted vs. a stock rotor. Where does the air go on a stock rotor? Nowhere, that's where

Which brings me back to...why tf doesn't the Plaid have brake ducts

Also, you can take weight out of an iron friction ring and still make it perform better because of that airflow thing, even if it's ostensibly the "same size". Bigger gap between the oreo cookies, better-designed frosting (vanes), cleaner machining as opposed to rough casting flash everywhere...sometimes subtraction is addition. And in the case of the stock Plaid brakes, which are a cheap, if large, one-piece iron rotor with a closed "hat", there are weight loss benefits just in going to a billet hat, which is where most off the weight came out when I upgraded my car anyway...the rings are actually probably slightly heavier than the oem friction rings, but on my car the stock ones are press-fit into a semi-floating setup and you have to use a dremel if you want to know how much everything weighs individually...

Because it's a street car? The Plaid+ CCBs are now released, that was their answer to a road course focused car.

Cool to see what they were planning, but I think we can all work on a better iron solution for the rotors designed as you are describing that is more cost effective and also replace the pads which seem to have been chosen for comfort not performance. With a few other tweaks I think that will get us a long way down the path toward a road trackable production based setup. If that isn't enough then we will all need to get more extreme. MPP is working on our car and so far they are happy with the prototype results.

 

[Richbot]

I don't think it's adequate for a street car if you can fade it in three 5-second blasts from the fun pedal. Sooooo many fast street cars (and many more slow ones) have brake ducts. Tons and tons. Ducts don't have to go all the wway to the uprght to be very effective compared to no air at all

I'm sure the Long Range/"Base" has similar issues it just takes longer. Even "uh oh what's that smell/noise" Merc has historically put ducts and full floating rotors on much, much slower cars, and I think that's the proverbial "standard of care". The powertrain in both trims is writing checks the brakes can't cash IMO

I think the CCB kit is going to be pretty rad and the biggest benefit will be getting the car all the way down to 9.15 in teh 1/4, heh. For tracking the car without eating omg dirtbermps, the aftermarket will have to provide the new hotness

I love where the one poster's head is at about water cooling. How awesome would it be to watch Plaids tracking with steam coming out in the brake zone

 

[Gninoked]

I don't think it's adequate for a street car if you can fade it in three 5-second blasts from the fun pedal

I'm sure the Long Range/"Base" has similar issues it just takes longer. Merc historically put full floating rotors on much, much slower cars, and I think that's the proverbial "standard of care". The powertrain in both trims is writing checks the brakes can't cash IMO

Certainly it's a product decision. I bet for 90% of plaid owners they are fine. If it really is as simple as the spacers, rotors and pads then the 10% can do that themselves (or be even more extreme and get CCBs, etc. etc.) For good or awesome, Tesla slims the options down to nothing so that they can focus on manufacturing the stuff cheaper. That's ok with me, then we get to play!

 

[Richbot]

Oh, I don't disagree, and they need to work in Alaska in February like I said earlier, so it's a design compromise for sure. But we all know the dentist who got a plaid and is used to his 911 letting him do silly things and protect him from it. This...won't. Remember what happened when spaceball 1 went to plaid? She overshot lone star by a parsec...

It would be a shame if they took away one of like three places you can mod an EV other than tints and PPF/wrap, lol

Now where's that aftermarket CF roof panel replacement for the S

 

[Unclepaul]

Interesting posts. Reminds me of when Vipers first came out and amatures began taking them to the track. They did not know how to pace themselves on track days so the brakes and tires could last a stint. Running as hard as possible just overheated the steering (from constant corrections), overheating the motors by running at high revs, and over heating brakes by not giving them a breather and miss application. The better drivers were able to get much more out of their cars than those that just hammered everything without mercy.

We also wanted cooling ducts. First changed to higher spec brake fluids as the fading was coming from overheated lines, not the brakes themselves. We also repurposed Porsche Turbo ducts. Easy to install (often with zip ties .

Believe that Tesla has mounted a pretty good braking system. Probably good enough for the 99%. They were working, behind the scenes, on the Plaid+ that probably had better brakes, cooling and tuning more to higher fatigue applications.

In the future the brakes will probably lean more on regeneration for ultimate track solutions. But right now the Plaids have only been in the hands of customers for a few months. Will take some time both factory and the aftermarket can serve the 1%ers.

Must also remember that these cars are relatively heavy 4 door sedans.

 

[lbowroom]

@MountainPass I believe your assessment of the Plaid is that the stock brake bias was rear heavy. Because of that you don't plan on having a BBK for the rear to match the front 400mm disk. Given that Tesla's kit is 410 in the front and rear (but thinner) might you reconsider making a 400mm rear? Or is the parking brake mount not worth the effort?

 

[Trompazo]

@MountainPass I believe your assessment of the Plaid is that the stock brake bias was rear heavy. Because of that you don't plan on having a BBK for the rear to match the front 400mm disk. Given that Tesla's kit is 410 in the front and rear (but thinner) might you reconsider making a 400mm rear? Or is the parking brake mount not worth the effort?

If track testing shows there is too much rear bias in the OEM configuration, to me it would suggest that the OEM upgrade would also have to much rear bias?

MPP does track development for Road course use on everything they release. They are not going to just release something because Tesla is doing it.

Tesla has yet to release any production car that is good on a non-drag strip race track without modifications.

 

[Trompazo]

Because it's a street car? The Plaid+ CCBs are now released, that was their answer to a road course focused car.

Cool to see what they were planning, but I think we can all work on a better iron solution for the rotors designed as you are describing that is more cost effective and also replace the pads which seem to have been chosen for comfort not performance. With a few other tweaks I think that will get us a long way down the path toward a road trackable production based setup. If that isn't enough then we will all need to get more extreme. MPP is working on our car and so far they are happy with the prototype results.

I do not see how the CCB package is their answer to a Road Course focused car.

Porsche recommends that those tracking there are GT cars a lot should not order the PCCB's. The McLaren guys who track a lot all convert to iron girodisc's. A lot of the Corvette guys do as well, even though the Corvette rotors are much more reasonable in price than any other factory Carbon Rotor.

The Tesla Carbon kit is good for primarily street cars, as well as those to drag race, and may be due to an odd track day. So it appears that their package is going after the current target market, which is not Road course users.

As it stands, even with the brake upgrades, this is not going to be a good track car with a massive stability control intervention program.

 

[lbowroom]

I do not see how the CCB package is their answer to a Road Course focused car.

Porsche recommends that those tracking there are GT cars a lot should not order the PCCB's. The McLaren guys who track a lot all convert to iron girodisc's. A lot of the Corvette guys do as well, even though the Corvette rotors are much more reasonable in price than any other factory Carbon Rotor.

The Tesla Carbon kit is good for primarily street cars, as well as those to drag race, and may be due to an odd track day. So it appears that their package is going after the current target market, which is not Road course users.

As it stands, even with the brake upgrades, this is not going to be a good track car with a massive stability control intervention program.

Good thing we expect track mode

 

[ninefiveone]

I don't see any way that even the best track mode and the best brakes would make this a good track car.

I'm not saying this discussion is without value. But physics is still physics.

 

[Gninoked]

I do not see how the CCB package is their answer to a Road Course focused car.

Porsche recommends that those tracking there are GT cars a lot should not order the PCCB's. The McLaren guys who track a lot all convert to iron girodisc's. A lot of the Corvette guys do as well, even though the Corvette rotors are much more reasonable in price than any other factory Carbon Rotor.

The Tesla Carbon kit is good for primarily street cars, as well as those to drag race, and may be due to an odd track day. So it appears that their package is going after the current target market, which is not Road course users.

As it stands, even with the brake upgrades, this is not going to be a good track car with a massive stability control intervention program.

I think they are mostly focused on one lap - a ring lap, a Laguna lap, etc. I think they will work there 100% for one lap, and they probably care less about the cost and more about the comparison to Porsche etc. Just an opinion, I could ask my contact and see if they are willing to comment.

In general I agree as I said, for normal people iron is probably the way to go (if normal people buy Plaids and want to track them?) Def agree we need track mode no matter what. Should be *very* soon.

 

[Gninoked]

I don't see any way that even the best track mode and the best brakes would make this a good track car.

I'm not saying this discussion is without value. But physics is still physics.

I like a good challenge. 'Good track car' is relative of course - no matter what the car is going to be heavy and bigger than I'd like, but we can make it better than most gas cars over a lap I think, we just have to play to its strengths.

 

[lbowroom]

I don't see any way that even the best track mode and the best brakes would make this a good track car.

I'm not saying this discussion is without value. But physics is still physics.

Well sure, a prepped Miata or S2000 are far better but what makes a car “good” for the track?

 

[Trompazo]

I like a good challenge. 'Good track car' is relative of course - no matter what the car is going to be heavy and bigger than I'd like, but we can make it better than most gas cars over a lap I think, we just have to play to its strengths.

I agree with mods (suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, aero, electronics) it could be good given its power. But this is quite different than what comes from Tesla.