Model S Service Contracts - the poll edition(tm)!

[bluetinc]

But that's my beef. I am HAPPY to bring my car in to let them look over it and run tests, pull data, etc. all in the name of improving the breed. However, I object to them charging me for the privilege of collecting data on their own cars which they will use to improve future models.

Give me a maintenance schedule and/or list of things your techs check for "several hours". I'll check all the mechanical bits myself (brakes, suspension, fluid levels, etc) and expect the computer tell me if something is wrong w/ the EV parts. If it's under warranty and the computer tells me to come in I'll bring it in and I don't expect to pay anything. If the car is out of warranty I expect to pay for the repair.

For those who don't want to do their own mechanical inspections or have them done by a local qualified mechanic can buy the service program and pay Tesla to do it. It's that simple really.

Hey Strider,

I've got mixed feelings about this. Being a first adopter of a new car and new technology, I feel that it's fair to have me shoulder some of the cost of the inspections, as it benefits both myself, and Tesla. Part of the reason I reserved my car back in 2009 was not to just buy a cool car, but to help make sure that EV's, Tesla, and then this car exist today. That feeling continues into today where I truly believe that if Tesla fails the other EV's out there will slowly drop off, followed by the volt. That said, I'm also not ok paying a $100 cell bill every month for my car to send data back to Tesla (I'm making this example up, it is NOT real). I'm still not sure if $600 per 12.5k is the right amount (This will end up over 1k a year for me). Somehow $3-400 just feels more like it...

Also, I would note that the non-EV systems on the car, while talked of as standard are on the exotic side of this range. I'm use to doing all (and I do mean all) services on my cars but for example with the virtual axis steering geometries on the S, while it does provide an amazing driving experience, I truly don't know how it's going to wear and/or how to tell that one of the flex joints are wearing too much. The same could be said for the HVAC system for the car. This makes me wonder if I am undervaluing what these services entail. Will they be disassembling the front end steering? Perhaps the upcoming blog will help settle some of this in my mind.

Peter

 

[4sevens.com]

But that's my beef. I am HAPPY to bring my car in to let them look over it and run tests, pull data, etc. all in the name of improving the breed. However, I object to them charging me for the privilege of collecting data on their own cars which they will use to improve future models.

Give me a maintenance schedule and/or list of things your techs check for "several hours". I'll check all the mechanical bits myself (brakes, suspension, fluid levels, etc) and expect the computer tell me if something is wrong w/ the EV parts. If it's under warranty and the computer tells me to come in I'll bring it in and I don't expect to pay anything. If the car is out of warranty I expect to pay for the repair.

For those who don't want to do their own mechanical inspections or have them done by a local qualified mechanic can buy the service program and pay Tesla to do it. It's that simple really.

Very well said

 

[efusco]

But that's my beef. I am HAPPY to bring my car in to let them look over it and run tests, pull data, etc. all in the name of improving the breed. However, I object to them charging me for the privilege of collecting data on their own cars which they will use to improve future models.

Give me a maintenance schedule and/or list of things your techs check for "several hours". I'll check all the mechanical bits myself (brakes, suspension, fluid levels, etc) and expect the computer tell me if something is wrong w/ the EV parts. If it's under warranty and the computer tells me to come in I'll bring it in and I don't expect to pay anything. If the car is out of warranty I expect to pay for the repair.

For those who don't want to do their own mechanical inspections or have them done by a local qualified mechanic can buy the service program and pay Tesla to do it. It's that simple really.

What's to stop you from doing that? I'm not sure I understand your "beef", they're not going to auto-draft your bank account or anything.

 

[bluetinc]

Yes, my original post was rather melodramatic and a little inane. I'll own it. It's just sheer frustration that Tesla is undermining themselves with these decisions that keep jacking the cost of ownership up.

Now that I'm a little calmer:

1. If they want/need to perform overly detailed "maintenance" to collect data about wear (which as you say may very well be a good idea), they shouldn't be charging customers for that. That is their development cost.

2. The $600 charge completely removes one of the major selling points of an electric vehicle: low maintenance cost. It is strange that they would undermine this so overtly.

RAY: "Have you seen my new car, Bob? It's a Tesla! It's electric!"
BOB: "Cool Ray! No combustion engine! No oil changes! It must cost nothing to maintain! I did the math and my Chevy costs about $500 a year to maintain. Crazy isn't it! "
RAY: "Well... Uh..."


3. They really need to lay out all hidden costs once and for all. What's the 3G plan? What's the supercharging plan?

Hey Westcoast,

I do understand, I am feeling a lot of the same frustrations. At this point, I think I'm going to write much of this from Tesla off as being a result of too long of a list of things to do, too few people to do them all quickly, and too little sleep. Hopefully the upcoming blog post from GB and the upcoming supercharger announcement on the 24th will help settle much of this.

Peter

 

[RDoc]

What's to stop you from doing that? I'm not sure I understand your "beef", they're not going to auto-draft your bank account or anything.

The question is the impact on your warranty. There hasn't been an official statement about what happens if you don't use their service contract and something fails. Will it be covered under warranty? The Roadster owners have said no, some people at Tesla have said yes.
There's a second related question about what happens after four years. What's needed to keep the battery warranty valid and what will it cost?

 

[efusco]

The question is the impact on your warranty. There hasn't been an official statement about what happens if you don't use their service contract and something fails. Will it be covered under warranty? The Roadster owners have said no, some people at Tesla have said yes.
There's a second related question about what happens after four years. What's needed to keep the battery warranty valid and what will it cost?

Magnusson-Moss covers you there. Unless they can prove you damaged or neglected some part of the vehicle. It's the same for any car. The onus is on the warranty holder to prove that it's your fault or neglect that caused the problem. I do my own warranty work on my Prius. Could it be a pain in the ass if something went wrong...sure, but for the cost savings and satisfaction of doing my own work I accept that risk.

 

[RDoc]

Magnusson-Moss covers you there. Unless they can prove you damaged or neglected some part of the vehicle. It's the same for any car. The onus is on the warranty holder to prove that it's your fault or neglect that caused the problem. I do my own warranty work on my Prius. Could it be a pain in the ass if something went wrong...sure, but for the cost savings and satisfaction of doing my own work I accept that risk.

But with the Teslas, the test systems may be so specialized that it won't be practical for anyone other than Tesla to own them. They already have mentioned the issue in their warranty.
Hopefully, Tesla is going to clear this up soon with their supposed upcoming blog statement.

 

[strider]

Hey Strider,

I've got mixed feelings about this. Being a first adopter of a new car and new technology, I feel that it's fair to have me shoulder some of the cost of the inspections, as it benefits both myself, and Tesla. Part of the reason I reserved my car back in 2009 was not to just buy a cool car, but to help make sure that EV's, Tesla, and then this car exist today. That feeling continues into today where I truly believe that if Tesla fails the other EV's out there will slowly drop off, followed by the volt. That said, I'm also not ok paying a $100 cell bill every month for my car to send data back to Tesla (I'm making this example up, it is NOT real). I'm still not sure if $600 per 12.5k is the right amount (This will end up over 1k a year for me). Somehow $3-400 just feels more like it...

Peter

Hi Peter,

Note that I am a Roadster owner. I posted upthread that the Roadster requires more work to maintain and so I see the value for the money I'm paying each year. Also I accept that it was Tesla's first car and they made some choices that necessitate a paid annual service. I also viewed buying my Roadster and paying for service to be helping Tesla succeed so they could continue to build awesome cars.

But Model S just shouldn't need "hours" of work every 12,500 miles like the Roadster. They should have learned from the Roadster and made the thing easier to maintain. The bottom line is that Tesla needs to tell me what they're doing in exchange for my money.

 

[dsm363]

But Model S just shouldn't need "hours" of work every 12,500 miles like the Roadster. They should have learned from the Roadster and made the thing easier to maintain. The bottom line is that Tesla needs to tell me what they're doing in exchange for my money.

I agree and I'm sure Tesla did learn a lot from the Roadster. There probably is a major difference in looking for wear and problems in 2,500 vs Model S production numbers. The Model S is also their first car Tesla has designed and built from the ground up themselves so it also is Tesla's first car in a sense. They do need to explain better what the money is for and I'm sure GeorgeB will update us with his blog soon.

 

[NigelM]

Mod Note: Official response from GeorgeB went here: Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-(incl-GeorgeB)

(Please read that thread reading before posting here).

 

[Adm]

Mod Note: Official response from GeorgeB went here: Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-(incl-GeorgeB)

(Please read that thread reading before posting here).

Did you just move GeorgeB's post this close to the delivery of your own car? :scared:

 

[NigelM]

Did you just move GeorgeB's post this close to the delivery of your own car? :scared:

LOL. Yes, that's my dedication to TMC! :biggrin:

 

[onlinespending]

So Tesla should invest the engineering time to write the software and install the sensors to determine that there is a streaky windshield ... and while costing them more, buyers should pay less. What am I missing here?

Well, obviously sensors for a streaky windshield is an extreme example (and an impractical one too), but companies do this all the time. Every company to a certain extent has to determine the trade-off between advertising a reliable, low-hassle product and eliminating potential revenue through repairs and maintenance. This is certainly the case with car manufacturers. On one extreme, you could have a car company deliberately create a car that will have some of its components fail after so many miles in an attempt to increase future revenue through repairs and replacement parts (ignoring the illegality of such an effort). On the other extreme, you could have a car company engineer the perfectly reliable car with an infinite mean-time-to-failure (ignoring the impossibility of such an effort) which would eliminate any future revenue for the company from repairs and replacement parts. All things being equal, guess which car will sell more? If it's advertised as being a zero-maintenance car, certainly the latter. Obviously nearly all cars fall somewhere in between. Designed to be relatively reliable, but are required to go through a regular maintenance schedule and will inevitably require some repairs/replacement parts outside of the usual maintenance. And the car companies are happy that this increases the profits over the lifetime of the car.

The thing about the Model S, is that Tesla has been advertising it as being a low maintenance vehicle that is immune to the usual ICE maintenance/replacement-of-parts one has grown accustomed to (oil/filter changes, timing belts, O2 sensors, spark plugs, etc.). This low-maintenance quality of the Model S is both inherent to it being an EV (and therefore having a more simple design, with "thousands of less moving parts") and through the engineering ingenuity of Tesla (including the sensors and remote diagnostics). And if it continued to embrace that quality, everyone here would be less upset. The fact is, Tesla seems to want to have it both ways. The ability to move more cars by advertising it as a low-maintenance vehicle, yet find ways to collect more in maintenance costs than even a traditional ICE vehicle.

 

[dsm363]

The fact that they will pick up your car if you are close to a service center or send out a Ranger to your house free of charge for warranty work (if you buy the plan) changes things a little I think. You are paying a lot but 'low maintenance' is a subjective term and they may view their service plan as an all encompassing insurance plan similar to AppleCare. I think it's just a different way of doing things which some people don't agree with for equally valid reasons.

 

[Mycroft]

The fact is, Tesla seems to want to have it both ways. The ability to move more cars by advertising it as a low-maintenance vehicle, yet find ways to collect more in maintenance costs than even a traditional ICE vehicle.

+1 Agree 100% This is exactly what it looks like.

On the other hand, their liquid cooled battery electric drive train is completely untested over the long term and they probably need to test the coolant and pumps regularly over a long period to determine the correct maintenance interval. Without that information, they're flying in the dark and would rather err on the conservative side at this time. They just don't feel they can admit this for some reason.

 

[NigelM]

On the other hand, their liquid cooled battery electric drive train is completely untested over the long term and they probably need to test the coolant and pumps regularly over a long period to determine the correct maintenance interval. Without that information, they're flying in the dark and would rather err on the conservative side at this time.

I take it as read that all consumer goods companies err on the conservative side of things like this; and with a car company I'm glad they do.

 

[4sevens.com]

The thing about the Model S, is that Tesla has been advertising it as being a low maintenance vehicle that is immune to the usual ICE maintenance/replacement-of-parts one has grown accustomed to (oil/filter changes, timing belts, O2 sensors, spark plugs, etc.). This low-maintenance quality of the Model S is both inherent to it being an EV (and therefore having a more simple design, with "thousands of less moving parts") and through the engineering ingenuity of Tesla (including the sensors and remote diagnostics). And if it continued to embrace that quality, everyone here would be less upset. The fact is, Tesla seems to want to have it both ways. The ability to move more cars by advertising it as a low-maintenance vehicle, yet find ways to collect more in maintenance costs than even a traditional ICE vehicle.

You hit the nail on the head. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too....

+1 Agree 100% This is exactly what it looks like.

On the other hand, their liquid cooled battery electric drive train is completely untested over the long term and they probably need to test the coolant and pumps regularly over a long period to determine the correct maintenance interval. Without that information, they're flying in the dark and would rather err on the conservative side at this time. They just don't feel they can admit this for some reason.

They won't admit it but it's "charged back" against early-adopter-owners who are backing Tesla. Thats not a nice way to treat buyer/investors, most of which are plopping down 6 figures for a young company with a short track record.

 

[qwk]

The fact that they will pick up your car if you are close to a service center or send out a Ranger to your house free of charge for warranty work (if you buy the plan) changes things a little I think. You are paying a lot but 'low maintenance' is a subjective term and they may view their service plan as an all encompassing insurance plan similar to AppleCare. I think it's just a different way of doing things which some people don't agree with for equally valid reasons.

Not at all. This is mandatory. You do this or else...

Thats why everyone is all riled up.

 

[dflye]

Not at all. This is mandatory. You do this or else...

Thats why everyone is all riled up.

Well, consider any service of EV related parts like the "or else" sticker on a hard drive, covering that one last screw you have to remove to get to the physical platters.

If you remove that sticker, you better damn well know WTH you are doing!

 

[onlinespending]

+1 Agree 100% This is exactly what it looks like.

On the other hand, their liquid cooled battery electric drive train is completely untested over the long term and they probably need to test the coolant and pumps regularly over a long period to determine the correct maintenance interval. Without that information, they're flying in the dark and would rather err on the conservative side at this time. They just don't feel they can admit this for some reason.

Exactly. As early adopters, we are paying the cost of these unknowns. And I'm not entirely surprised by that, nor even upset with that concept. If Tesla were confident in their design and thought issues with the Model S to be extremely low risk, it would not require a $600 annual maintenance fee (especially for the first 4 years). And if it somehow does believe the chance of an issue with the Model S to be extremely low, well, then it's simply sneaking in a high maintenance fee as a way to earn more revenue (although somewhat undeserving given the low-risk design).

But lets call it what it is. EVs are NOT low-maintenance vehicles. In fact, they are high-maintenance vehicles (at the moment) because they are still in their infancy and not proven technologies. We have to stop pretending that it's actually cheaper to maintain an EV until there are more on the road and the technologies improve. So Tesla should no longer make claims of how low-maintenance it is, or how simple the design is with so many less moving parts. Because in the case of maintenance, those points are immaterial if they're not in any way advantageous to less frequent and less expensive maintenance!