Model S Service Contracts - the poll edition(tm)!

[stopcrazypp]

I just don't see why Tesla allows this confusion, speculation, misinformation in the first place.
Sure things will probably work out, but why let us stew in anger for 3 days and 36 pages in just this one thread alone.

Because in an attempt for transparency they elect to give out early information in a blog format (such that it is not necessarily complete). Then people here add their speculation based on incomplete information. The complaints stew for a while until George B comes to clarify.

According to the website, each Model S should come with a "Tesla Service Plans" document. If someone has that and posts it, it should clarify a lot of things.
http://www.teslamotors.com/service

The warranty is already posted here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9578-Warranty-(esp-driving-through-floods!)

The warranty does mention:

Although Tesla does not require you to perform all maintenance, service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to lack of or improper maintenance, service or repairs.
...
Maintenance services, including, but not limited to, the following:
· Standard 12 month or 12,000 mile service and diagnostics checks;
· Wheel alignment or balancing;
· Appearance care (such as cleaning and polishing); and
· Expendable maintenance items (such as wiper blades/inserts, brake pads/linings, filters, etc.).

The only thing in that list that can't be performed basically anywhere is the diagnostics (specifically on the EV components; the brakes and other general car parts can be done by anyone).

The key point is if that diagnostics is mandatory for warranty purposes and if it can be done by a third party. This service plan would not be a big deal if either it's not mandatory or if it can be done by a third party (maybe even the owner themselves).

For people talking about the legal trouble Tesla will get into, first be clear Tesla provides a LIMITED warranty (like 99.9% of manufacturers today), not a full warranty, so it does not have to abide by the terms of the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. Also, for those talking about Tesla having to provide third-party repair facilities to provide repair services, that only exists in Massachusetts, taking effect in November this year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners'_Right_to_Repair_Act

 

[bonnie]

Mods, can't you redo the poll, and let everyone vote again? So many people are following this thread that I think within a day you're going to have the same number of votes...and a better picture of what people really think.

No, we cannot redo the poll. I can modify posts, change titles - but not redo a poll. Perhaps an administrator can do that, but we cannot.

 

[Beavis]

So are you saying that everyone on TMC's cycles are synch'd up?

Well, it was about a month ago the we had the whole reading light/vanity mirror fiasco. Then we spent another 2 weeks pointing fingers and defending ourselves. I forget the one before that. Thankfully, memory fades.

 

[jerry33]

I wonder why TDI cars (it's not ONE car, the TDI engines are available in dozens of models from VW Up via Skoda Superb und all kinds Seat models right up to the Audi Q7 V12 TDI) are winning reliability surveys every year for almost two decades now if they are supposed to be as bad as you say - and why VW are selling ever more millions of them each year.

By the way I have driven several TDI's myself, and our current family Touran is again a (this time BlueMotion) TDI, great fuel economy and no reliability problems whatsoever. And we never had to pay even close to $600 for a service for any of our TDI cars.

My best guess is the ones sold here are made in Mexico by $1.00/day workers while yours are made in Germany by workers who get a living wage. VW screwed me once--never again.

 

[bluetinc]

"A. This is a new car, Tesla's first, and they want to see it way too often to make sure they understand how things are wearing, and catch design issues."

Absolutely, but this is THEIR problem. There are two MAJOR problems with this.

1. If they want to check the car to gain data, then THEY should be paying US to examine the car, not the other way around. It's just totally screwed up for us to have to pay the cost of their lack of information.

2. The fact that they are so worried about this vehicle that they need to spend "hours" looking them over every 12,500 miles makes me completely question the quality of this product. It sounds to me like they haven't got the foggiest idea how this thing will wear or what will need to be replaced. That worries me.

Westcoast,

1. It really sounds like the Model S is NOT for you. You don't seem to understand the point in the startup process the Tesla is in. What you are suggesting just isn't based in reality. There is no possible way for them to pay you, you have simply put Tesla out of business, and if you expect them to preform inspections and service for free then you might as well have put a stop to their expansion. I'm sure that once they have been around for 95 years such as BMW, their ability to both shoulder more of this, better predict costs and margins, and have long standing data on their designs, they will better match your type of car company.


2. I'm not sure how to explain this to you other than to say when you build something new, it never goes perfectly. If you did it well, then it's only small issues and you clear them up and refine the design for the next time. This is a NEW car, and not new in the way that Toyota or Honda releases a new model line, this is new like you are buying the FIRST car Toyota ever made. In fact, if they didn't want to carefully check over the cars regularly and carefully, I would be very very worried, and it would be very foolhardy on Tesla's part. If you expected to be able to just drive the car for 100,000 miles and never check anything, no tie rod ends, no ball joints, no wheel bearings like you would with a Toyota, then again, I say this is not the car for you.

Peter

 

[JakeP]

Amen, Bluetinc. I am an engineer, and the fact that Tesla wants to thoroughly inspect this thing every 12,500 miles impresses me, more than anything else. Yes, it hurts the wallet a bit, but I see it as buying a *major* peace of mind. However simple this drivetrain may be, it is new and a completely unknown quantity over many thousands of miles. We may know how brake rotors and pads wear on an ICE, or how ICE transmissions wear, but we know nothing about how a drive inverter wears over thousands of miles and hundreds of jackrabbit accelertions, do we? I will gladly pay Tesla to come my own house and inspect this car for a few hours a year, for the same amount I paid out of pocket over five years of owning my BMW, which had "free" 4-yr 50K mile maintenance included in the purchase price (and who knows what I paid for that). This is the price of being an early adopter, and I am fine with that...and thankful I won't have to pay Ranger fees as I had originally anticipated!

 

[Jeeps17]

I am surprised, however, to not see something like free four-year service plan for Sigs (or even 85kWh's), with their higher costs and (one would assume) margins.

+1
That would go a LONG way in terms of customer satisfaction.

 

[CyberDutchie]

BUT:

I guess they need the cash.

My 'back of the napkin' calculations:

5.000 Model S in 2012 x ($ 600 to $ 2.400) = approx. 5 m$
should cover most of the cost of opening the new service centers
20.000 Model S in 2013 x $ 600 = 12 m$
should cover the expense of maintaining the service centers and the rangers

BUT:

If they lose 12% reservation holders as this poll suggests, that's 25,000 x 0.12 = 3,000 Model S sales lost x $70,000 avg x 25% margin = $52.5 million lost in gross profit.

 

[Vger]

I have to agree. At least they could give a free upgrade to the AnyWhere plan for the first 4 years. As many others have said on multiple threads, the value of the Signature edition has faded, and could use a refurb.

 

[ckessel]

BUT:

If they loose 12% reservation holders as this poll suggests, that's 25,000 x 0.12 = 3,000 Model S sales lost x $70,000 avg x 25% margin = $52.5 million lost in gross profit.

They'll only lose (not loose) money if the drop rate causes them to reduce production. It doesn't matter if demand drops by 12% if that's still outpacing supply.

 

[jimbakker666]

edited: thanks for the response Cinergi, nothing to see here

 

[jed-99aggie]

I just got off the phone with a Tesla Ownership Experience Advocate (TOEA). This was in follow up to me speaking with my configuration consultant yesterday regarding my concerns and lack of understanding regarding the Tesla Service communication (9/10/12). While was the TOEA was not able to answer all of my questions he demonstrated diligence and proactive intent to provide greater clarity on remaining items.

Based on the discussion, he was able to articulate the following:
• The annual inspection service tech would on average spend 3-4 hours with your vehicle. This would include disassembly of various compartments and access to service-only components of the car. Not equivalent to the typical “29 point inspection”. A full checklist is being researched.
• From the announcement, I was quick to jump onto the disingenuous nature of the replacement parts claim (namely brakes). While it was not confirmed, the TOEA is checking into other items like XENON bulbs, Brake fluid or cooling system flush, etc. A full table of service intervals is being researched.
• My state requires a safety inspection annually (after the first 2 years). This is intended to check if the horn, blinkers, brakes, etc. are all functioning. Our state also requires SMOG testing. This will be confusing for the local independent guy to do, when they can’t locate the gas cap and OBDII port. The TOEA is checking into if this is to be included as part of the stated annual inspection. It would certainly prove more convenient, ensure another purpose for annual interaction and, I believe, provide Tesla owners a better overall experience.
• The features of System Monitoring and Remote Diagnostics, do actually occur using cellular based (3G) communications (not WIFI). This can occur on your vehicle weather you subscribe to the data package or not. Tesla is enabling this “channel” of radio communication as part of Tesla Service. For me this was value, and a complete missed point in Monday’s announcement.
• SW updates. I see three buckets: 1. bug fixes; 2. implementation of aforementioned features; 3. wholly new features. The TOEA stated with out a doubt, bucket 1 and 2 are included in the vehicle purchase. These are not annual service dependent and will be pushed when ready (i.e. testing completed). Bucket three is being researched. This also leads to the question if you are a pay $600 annually option, do you only get bucket 3 at the annual service? This is also being researched.
• We also discussed topics regarding what warranty is invalidated if I fail to service annually. This proves to be a grey area. It sounds like if not appearing for annual service causes a part to fail (e.g. battery cell overheats) than customer liable. If the part is not a service item (e.g. seat motor) and fails it will still be covered. Given that on the larger batteries warranty coverage extends beyond 4/50k, I asked for clarity on Tesla Service during years 5, 6, 7. This is being researched.
• It was confirmed that initially no loaner car will be available. However my request for a fleet of loaner Tesla Roadsters will be taken under advisement …

All in all, a very productive conversation in backing me off the ledge of walking away. Glad I was able to meet this TOEA and look forward to learning the responses on the outstanding items.

I encourage you to also reach out to Tesla directly. I got the impression they are having regular internal meetings/education sessions to respond to this situation. Your input and feedback will help them improve this sticky Tesla Service announcement.

 

[cinergi]

Originally Posted by westcoast
My major problem with this whole deal is not so much the $600 per se, but the fact that the cost of this thing keeps rising seemingly monthly for the buyer.

<a mass of misinformation deleted...seriously complaining about CA sales tax as a unexpected cost?>




Did a mod really censor this guy's post? If the guy is making a statement that is inaccurate, perhaps people can correct him instead of a mod deciding right and wrong all by themselves?

I'm saying this as a former blog administrator who was known by lovers and haters both for running an extremely fair discussion. If a person is misinformed, why not let them speak and then have the community correct itself? I can understand if it was a troll thread created/comment specifically to a) troll and b) spread disinformation, but this is a guy's legit post buried in the 34th page of a thread....

Seriously, if the guy was censored for voicing his opinion (even if misguided), that's not cool at all. If he wasn't censored and added the brackets himself for some odd reason, then disregard.

No. Just removed from the quote to keep the quote size down.

- - - Updated - - -

• My state requires a safety inspection annually (after the first 2 years). This is intended to check if the horn, blinkers, brakes, etc. are all functioning. Our state also requires SMOG testing. This will be confusing for the local independent guy to do, when they can’t locate the gas cap and OBDII port. The TOEA is checking into if this is to be included as part of the stated annual inspection. It would certainly prove more convenient, ensure another purpose for annual interaction and, I believe, provide Tesla owners a better overall experience.

Mass. has a similar inspection (what state are you in?) -- and it was no problem inspecting the Roadster. There's an "EV button" of sorts on the inspection equipment which bypasses the emissions check. The safety check doesn't require hooking into OBDII or anything of that nature. There were 0 problems or questions about how to get through the process. I suspect it won't be an issue.

 

[bonnie]

Originally Posted by westcoast
My major problem with this whole deal is not so much the $600 per se, but the fact that the cost of this thing keeps rising seemingly monthly for the buyer.

<a mass of misinformation deleted...seriously complaining about CA sales tax as a unexpected cost?>


,
Did a mod really censor this guy's post? If the guy is making a statement that is inaccurate, perhaps people can correct him instead of a mod deciding right and wrong all by themselves?

I'm saying this as a former blog administrator who was known by lovers and haters both for running an extremely fair discussion. If a person is misinformed, why not let them speak and then have the community correct itself? I can understand if it was a troll thread created/comment specifically to a) troll and b) spread disinformation, but this is a guy's legit post buried in the 34th page of a thread....

Seriously, if the guy was censored for voicing his opinion (even if misguided), that's not cool at all. If he wasn't censored and added the brackets himself for some odd reason, then disregard.

Give us a break, please. I'm so tired of everyone assuming the worst. (And sorry, I don't feel like disregarding. You put it out there.)

We do not censor posts as a rule, certainly not opinions. It is not a one-sided discussion. No one removed a post here.

There are a couple of exceptions to that - if a poster has posted personal information (full name, email, etc.) of another person, we will typically remove that (unless that information is readily available online). If there is really egregious language, we will likely replace it. (This forum is meant to be family friendly.) And lastly, if there is unapproved IP posted, we will remove it upon request. And we typically will send the original poster a private message, explaining what happened and why.

If you had bothered to scroll up, you would have seen his original post intact. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...e-poll-edition(tm)!/page4?p=184918#post184918

 

[Blurry_Eyed]

Thanks jed-99aggie for sharing your dialogue, it helps me understand better what's going on and I really appreciate it!

 

[jimbakker666]

Give us a break, please. I'm so tired of everyone assuming the worst. (And sorry, I don't feel like disregarding. You put it out there.)

We do not censor posts as a rule, certainly not opinions. It is not a one-sided discussion. No one removed a post here.

There are a couple of exceptions to that - if a poster has posted personal information (full name, email, etc.) of another person, we will typically remove that (unless that information is readily available online). If there is really egregious language, we will likely replace it. (This forum is meant to be family friendly.) And lastly, if there is unapproved IP posted, we will remove it upon request. And we typically will send the original poster a private message, explaining what happened and why.

If you had bothered to scroll up, you would have seen his original post intact. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...e-poll-edition(tm)!/page4?p=184918#post184918

I did scroll up and found his own edit which was different than the text I quoted. Good job on not disregarding. Sorry you're tired, tough gig.

 

[bonnie]

I did scroll up and found his own edit which was different than the text I quoted. Good job on not disregarding. Sorry you're tired.

In some circles, people would apologize for assuming the worst of others instead of a veiled 'sorry you're tired' put down. -shrug- I'm done.

 

[jimbakker666]

In some circles, people would apologize for assuming the worst of others instead of a veiled 'sorry you're tired' put down. -shrug- I'm done.

And in some circles, a person taking the time to go back and edit their own post to keep things factual would be considered upstanding and in the spirit of keeping things honest.

I match tone-for-tone. If you tell me to 'give you a break', you should not expect an apology. If you tell me 'nope Jim we don't moderate peoples' opinions here', I might actually apologize. I'd even laugh at a joke in my direction, try it sometime.

But apologize when someone reacts with 'give me a break', especially when the question was already answered and done with? Give me a break, please.

 

[Tommy]

I follow both Tesla's official forum and TMC. Tesla has started posting comments about the maintenance blog. Transforming Automotive Service | Blog | Tesla Motors Good to see many of the familiar voices posting on Tesla's thread as well.

 

[bonnie]

I follow both Tesla's official forum and TMC. Tesla has started posting comments about the maintenance blog. Transforming Automotive Service | Blog | Tesla Motors Good to see many of the familiar voices posting on Tesla's thread as well.

Good to hear. Thanks, Tommy.