Model S Service Contracts - the poll edition(tm)!

[bonnie]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the cost/benefit on the streaky windshield wipers. I think they HAVE installed monitoring on the systems that could be catastrophic. And I think we all agree there is a point where remote monitoring is not cost-effective.

 

[jerry33]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the cost/benefit on the streaky windshield wipers. I think they HAVE installed monitoring on the systems that could be catastrophic. And I think we all agree there is a point where remote monitoring is not cost-effective.

Well, that was just an example, but they already have sensors that automatically turn on the wipers when it rains. It wouldn't be really hard to add a bit to determine streakiness, which is why I used it. And they already have the critical systems monitored, like you say, so no extra cost there.

If they can eliminate the redundant service (or at least 80% of it), and replace a part before it causes two or three other parts to break, they've saved money. Not to mention the owner satisfaction with a car that really is almost totally reliable.

 

[swegman]

Jerry33, you really spend $600/year for maintennance on your Prius? What year is it. I have a 2005 model with 96,000 miles on it and have never spent more than $100/year (not counting tires). Service being at the dealer. The car gets better mileage today (51-52 mpg) than when it was new. I am not easy on the car either. I have found the Prius to be rock solid reliable. I still am on the original brake pads (2 dealers told me that the pads on the Prius rarely need replacing).

I have not spent $600/year on the 3 Lexus cars my wife has had, although I admit that she has never kept her cars for more than 3 years at a time (she kept the first car for 3 years, the second car for 1 year, and the third Lexus is now 2-1/2 years old and she has gotten the itch to get a newer Lexus).

Service was included for the 2 Audi's (an A4 and an A6) that I owned during the warranty period (4 years if I recall). I sold the A4 just before its warranty ran out, and sold the A6 after owning it for slightly more than 3 years.

So basically, I'm saying that I am not used to paying $600/year (or even half that amount) for service on any new car I have purchased in the last 15+ years. Plus, Audi, Lexus, MB, etc. always gave me a loaner car when I would drop off the car for service.

 

[markwj]

Tesla seems pretty ready to void warranties. For example, if you drive your car into Mexico, or even have it trucked through Mexico your warranty is voided.

Do you have a reference for this? Seems quite strange given Tesla is honoring warranty on Rafael's roadster, which just drove around the world. Then again, he didn't drive through Mexico - but China, Russia and Kazakstan are pretty wild

I have heard of Tesla refusing warranty coverage for cars gray-market exported. They said the owner would have to bring it back to USA (where it was originally purchased) to have the service performed under warranty.

 

[jerry33]

Jerry33, you really spend $600/year for maintennance on your Prius? What year is it.

2004

I have a 2005 model with 96,000 miles on it and have never spent more than $100/year (not counting tires).

I have spent $10,030.80 including tires over 140,529 trouble-free miles. Add $6,358.42 for gas and you get $0.117 cents per mile for dealer maintenance, tires, and fuel combined.

Service being at the dealer.

Dealer service here, too.

The car gets better mileage today (51-52 mpg) than when it was new.

So has mine.

2004 Prius MPG from the logbook. (Complete years only):
2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles

I have found the Prius to be rock solid reliable. I still am on the original brake pads (2 dealers told me that the pads on the Prius rarely need replacing).

Mine has been rock solid too, and I've never replaced the brakes either. However, I do more preventive maintenance than most folks. I get the transaxle fluid change at 40,000 mile intervals based on the laboratory testing I've had done which indicates that at 40,000 miles it's time. I've replaced water pumps because I've found on other cars they tend to fail at around 100,000 miles, so I replace them before that. In particular, the inverter water pump. (I still have a free one coming to me that I have to get by Nov 2013). I had a real frame shop alignment done because a dealer alignment wore a set of tires down to 50% in a few weeks. I added a stability plate (really improves handling), and I've replaced quite a few wiper blades (they rot quickly in the Texas heat--even if you don't use them all that often). I've also done the timing chain adjustment (60,000 mile intervals) and throttle body cleaning. At around 100,000 miles there are spark plugs and coolant changes as well.

I've been very happy with my Prius (and also the 2001 that Denise drives), however, I really, really dislike the dealer experience (and there are seven or so dealers around here--I've tried them all). Having to bring a measured amount of oil so they won't overfill, the poor alignments, not knowing how to start the car, and the black box so you never know who's working on your car, etc. pretty much ruin the Prius experience for me. (Which is why I'll likely never buy another Toyota and it's a big part of purchasing a Tesla).

However, compared to the VW TDI, dealer maintenance alone cost twice as much as tires, fuel, and dealer maintenance combined cost for the Prius (not to mention the tows and downtime) driving the Prius is almost free.

If you only spend $100 per year, then you aren't doing any preventive maintenance.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have a reference for this?

The warranty was posted on the TM forum by Barbara and Rod--and it really says that for the Model S warranty. It's also here.

 

[markwj]

The warranty was posted on the TM forum by Barbara and Rod--and it really says that for the Model S warranty. It's also here.

I can't see any mention of Mexico - guess you're talking about the driven/transported out of North America clause. I think that is the 'gray market' clause I was referring to. It is terribly worded (perhaps legalese?) - could they really legally void the warranty for taking the car over the border for the weekend (as opposed to exporting it to Mexico for a long time)? It will be interesting to see how the European warranties are written.

 

[RDoc]

Do you have a reference for this?

This is from the Tesla warranty:

This New Vehicle Limited Warranty applies to a Model S vehicle sold by Tesla in the Tesla North America Warranty
Region and transported or driven only in the Tesla North America Warranty Region. For purposes of this New Vehicle
Limited Warranty, the Tesla North America Warranty Region is defined as all 50 states of the United States of
America, the District of Columbia, and all 13 provinces and territories of Canada. If your vehicle was sold, transported
or driven outside the Tesla North America Warranty Region, no warranties, including this New Vehicle Limited
Warranty, will apply.

The following will also void this New Vehicle Limited Warranty:
• Vehicles that have been transported or driven outside the Tesla North America Warranty Region;

I have no idea why they do this. AFAIK Mexican power is identical to US and while their roads may not be great, neither are a lot of ours.
They also have this somewhat ominous comment in the voiding warranty area:

Although Tesla does not require you to perform all maintenance, service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or
Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due
to lack of or improper maintenance, service or repairs. Tesla Service Centers and Tesla authorized repair facilities
have special training, expertise, tools and supplies with respect to your vehicle and, in certain cases, may employ
the only persons or be the only facilities authorized or certified to work on certain parts of your vehicle. Tesla strongly
recommends that you have all maintenance, service and repairs done at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized
repair facility in order to avoid voiding, or having coverage excluded under, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

I don't know what this really means, but it might be talking about not taking their service contract.

 

[markwj]

Re: warranty. The first part is fine, by me. It is a US car sold in the USA and the warranty is in the USA. If I took the car to Europe, then no warranty cover.

It is the second part that is ominous. Then again, can the warranty be un-voided by bringing it back to the USA? I'm not a lawyer, and I suspect only a lawyer would be able to say what this means. I know if I was in a town bordering Mexico, and frequently took my car over the border for the weekend, this would not sit well with me. Or, is this normal and in other US vehicle warranties?

Re: service. Yes, my reading is that means you need to get it serviced or may affect warranty, and that service may only be feasible to be done by Tesla.

 

[Robert.Boston]

What @jerry33 describes above is called "predictive maintenance" (PdM) or "condition-based maintenance". It is becoming the standard in some areas, e.g. large-scale power generation. To Bonnie's point about cost, it's just like battery-vs.-gas: it does cost more up front in capital costs, but the TCO is reduced. Power plant owners can do that math rationally (in part because most opt for a Long Term Service Agreement with the turbine supplier, so the savings is immediately apparent), but as we've discussed on these boards, most consumers are rather bad at doing the math on purchase price vs. TCO.

 

[bonnie]

Maybe the example was just a bad one. I do understand TCO. I don't see how putting in sensors to determine a streaky windshield due to wipers that need to be replaced (something the driver is perfectly capable of observing) lowers TCO. The wipers not being replaced do not lead to other problems. Putting in sensors and writing software to determine costs money and saves nothing. (And determining that the cause of a streaky windshield is due to worn wipers and not to other factors might not be so simple.)

Tesla does have a few things they can monitor remotely - I assume those are part of an overall assessment as to what makes a difference. And things like tire sensors don't save them money, but are practical for us. It seems like the issue is addressed. We may all have differing opinions as to how much should be monitored remotely, but at least some of systems ARE being monitored remotely.

If the intent is to totally bypass all service, I'm not sure that can show ROI. There is a line where it is no longer appropriate. Even life support equipment intended for home use, with back up systems/fail safe design/remote monitoring of key processes requires physical inspection on a predetermined schedule.

 

[jerry33]

If the intent is to totally bypass all service, I'm not sure that can show ROI. There is a line where it is no longer appropriate. Even life support equipment intended for home use, with back up systems/fail safe design/remote monitoring of key processes requires physical inspection on a predetermined schedule.

The intent isn't to bypass all maintenance, it's to do the maintenance when it's appropriate rather than just to do it whether it's needed or not. (Life support equipment is different because the risks are higher). So if you have a driver who races his car twice a month, a 12,000 mile interval is likely to be not enough. On the other hand someone who drives the car weekends only and puts on 6,000 easy miles a year, a annual inspection is way overkill. Either way you save money because replacing the racer's parts before they go bad will save replacing other parts (and the time it takes to replace them) that might go bad because of failure of the first parts. Now when the car is in for service the full inspection is performed the same way you would do it on the 12,000 mile schedule, but servicing when there is a reason to do so is going to save money and inconvenience for both Tesla and drivers.

 

[swegman]

Did anyone notice that the warranty link that jerry33 provided indicates that the warranty is voided if the car is towed. It doesn't say towed in any particular manner. It simply says towed. So technically, even if an owner has the car lifted by, for example, a crane, onto a flatbed truck, which is the driven to a Tesla center for service/repairs, and another machine lifts the car off the flatbed truck and places the car in a Tesla service bay, the warranty is voided. I can't imagine Tesla meant this. Seems to me the warranty is poorly written. My guess is they meant to indicate the warranty is voided if the car is towed with the wheels on the ground and locked so they can not rotate.

- - - Updated - - -

Jerry33, the only service I have done on the Prius is what Toyota specifies in their maintennace book. I did have the inverter pump replaced, but that was done under the recall.

In any event, everyone should only be looking at and discussing the cost of maintennance of their cars for the first 4 years/50,000 miles, since that is what Tesla is offering. AFAIK, no one (other than possibly Tesla) has any idea what maintennance on the Tesla will be and/or cost after that period.

 

[dsm363]

Did anyone notice that the warranty link that jerry33 provided indicates that the warranty is voided if the car is towed. It doesn't say towed in any particular manner. It simply says towed. So technically, even if an owner has the car lifted by, for example, a crane, onto a flatbed truck, which is the driven to a Tesla center for service/repairs, and another machine lifts the car off the flatbed truck and places the car in a Tesla service bay, the warranty is voided. I can't imagine Tesla meant this. Seems to me the warranty is poorly written. My guess is they meant to indicate the warranty is voided if the car is towed with the wheels on the ground and locked so they can not rotate.

The warranty would only likely be voided if you towed it in a manner Tesla doesn't approve (pulling car by front wheels with rear wheels in the ground) as you said. Looks like they need to update the wording. Have you emailed Tesla?

 

[daniel]

Did anyone notice that the warranty link that jerry33 provided indicates that the warranty is voided if the car is towed. It doesn't say towed in any particular manner. It simply says towed. So technically, even if an owner has the car lifted by, for example, a crane, onto a flatbed truck, which is the driven to a Tesla center for service/repairs, and another machine lifts the car off the flatbed truck and places the car in a Tesla service bay, the warranty is voided.

Transporting a car on a flatbed is not "towing." Towing means pulling a car with its wheels (or some of them) on the ground. Even pulling the car onto the flatbed using the built-in tow attachment point and included tow hook would not be considered towing. (I'm thinking of the Roadster here. I don't know what method is used for the S.) Since the owner's manual gives specific instructions for how to put the car onto the flatbed, there's no way Tesla could void the warranty for doing that, and given Tesla's track record, they won't try.

What they're saying is that transporting the car should be done on a flatbed, and not by pulling it with a rope. It's curious how people will look for problems where none exist. There are real issues. This is not one of them.

 

[chmod a+wrx]

The warranty would only likely be voided if you towed it in a manner Tesla doesn't approve (pulling car by front wheels with rear wheels in the ground) as you said. Looks like they need to update the wording. Have you emailed Tesla?

What would happen if the city towed your vehicle for some reason in this manner? ? ? ? Owner at fault for any damages I suppose.......

 

[jerry33]

the only service I have done on the Prius is what Toyota specifies in their maintennace book. I did have the inverter pump replaced, but that was done under the recall.

I've done more. I replaced the inverter pump before the recall came out (because I was nearing 100,000 miles and it's known to have a life of about 100,000 miles but before it actually failed--there's no point in trying to get the last few miles out of a part if it's at the end of its known life) . And although the transaxle fluid change isn't in the book, it's highly recommended to change every 40,000 miles based on the laboratory analysis of the fluid done by the Yahoo Prius Technical Group (I have lab results for both my Prii in that study along with others).

 

[ken830]

I'm with Jerry33. An EV is supposed to be low-cost to maintain. And if the Model S is so advanced, it should know when it needs maintenance (preventative or in response to a failure). A fixed time and mileage interval is the old way. Even ICE vehicles (the newer ones) have oil quality monitoring to move away from fixed interval changes. This is good for the manufacturer, the customer, and the environment.

 

[dsm363]

I'm with Jerry33. An EV is supposed to be low-cost to maintain. And if the Model S is so advanced, it should know when it needs maintenance (preventative or in response to a failure). A fixed time and mileage interval is the old way. Even ICE vehicles (the newer ones) have oil quality monitoring to move away from fixed interval changes. This is good for the manufacturer, the customer, and the environment.

This is also a completely new car though and although it may require less service, they'd be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't closely monitor their cars for the first number of years to see how things are holding up. Maybe years from now they can back off on these requirements after they have 5-10 years of experience under their belts.

 

[jerry33]

This is also a completely new car though and although it may require less service, they'd be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't closely monitor their cars for the first number of years to see how things are holding up. Maybe years from now they can back off on these requirements after they have 5-10 years of experience under their belts.

But that's the point of predictive maintenance--they get the car in when something looks odd (and perhaps do a random sampling of every production week when that car has met certain milage or usage criteria). Once the car is in for service they go through it carefully. That really should be plenty to get all the quality control information, and it should save both Tesla and the driver money.

So they would look at all the cars that actually required servicing, and a few others randomly selected, plus the folks who brought them in for one reason or another.

 

[strider]

This is also a completely new car though and although it may require less service, they'd be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't closely monitor their cars for the first number of years to see how things are holding up. Maybe years from now they can back off on these requirements after they have 5-10 years of experience under their belts.

But that's my beef. I am HAPPY to bring my car in to let them look over it and run tests, pull data, etc. all in the name of improving the breed. However, I object to them charging me for the privilege of collecting data on their own cars which they will use to improve future models.

Give me a maintenance schedule and/or list of things your techs check for "several hours". I'll check all the mechanical bits myself (brakes, suspension, fluid levels, etc) and expect the computer tell me if something is wrong w/ the EV parts. If it's under warranty and the computer tells me to come in I'll bring it in and I don't expect to pay anything. If the car is out of warranty I expect to pay for the repair.

For those who don't want to do their own mechanical inspections or have them done by a local qualified mechanic can buy the service program and pay Tesla to do it. It's that simple really.