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rush6410
Member
Just to add, I just went over 100K miles without an extended warranty with no significant repairs. I had a window actuator and camera fail. I spent under $1000 on potentially covered failures. So, I made out not extending the warranty in a significant way.
So far in the first year my ESA has covered around $3000 worth of repairs, so it's well on the way to me at least breaking even. We'll see! Also at ~45k miles I have a 100% range of 246 miles compared to the original 257, just over 4% down, which seems not bad at all for five years in. 90% range just fell to 222 miles the other day.
Well, I wouldn't be using estimated range based on Tesla estimation. Best way to charge the car up to almost full/full and discharger down to 10%.
69k on the clock.
Test 1:
conditions: 68F outside, inside 60F, speed around 60mph-70mph, side and front cross wind.
results: covered 190 miles, energy used 59 kW, departure state of charge 95%, arrival state of charge 19%.
opinion: Considering the battery is already degraded down to 75-77kW, you can cover under such conditions around 245 miles. Considering EPA testing conditions, you can easily reach originally stated range.
Test 2:
conditions: 73F outside, inside 72F (auto), speed 1/2 route 68-70mph, 1/2 route 85-90mph, side and front cross wind.
results: covered 203 miles, energy used 66 kW, departure state of charge 100%, arrival state of charge 10%.
opinion: considering the battery is already degraded down to 75-77kW, you can cover under such conditions around 230 miles, which is pretty solid in comparison to EPA testing conditions.
69k on the clock.
Test 1:
conditions: 68F outside, inside 60F, speed around 60mph-70mph, side and front cross wind.
results: covered 190 miles, energy used 59 kW, departure state of charge 95%, arrival state of charge 19%.
opinion: Considering the battery is already degraded down to 75-77kW, you can cover under such conditions around 245 miles. Considering EPA testing conditions, you can easily reach originally stated range.
Test 2:
conditions: 73F outside, inside 72F (auto), speed 1/2 route 68-70mph, 1/2 route 85-90mph, side and front cross wind.
results: covered 203 miles, energy used 66 kW, departure state of charge 100%, arrival state of charge 10%.
opinion: considering the battery is already degraded down to 75-77kW, you can cover under such conditions around 230 miles, which is pretty solid in comparison to EPA testing conditions.
I have a 2021 Model Y Performance which we took delivery of in Dec 2020. Original battery range was 301 miles, however after 6 months battery range decreased to 273 miles, therefore range loss of 9.43pct. The range loss occurred when changing the wheel setting in the system to the 19 inch set up In order to put 19 inch rims and all season tires on the vehicle for the winter. Putting the Uberturbines back on the vehicle does not increase range beyond the 273 mile current range. Since the time of the loss no further degradation has occurred. After repeated attempts to engage Tesla service to identify this as some form of software anO’Malley, Tesla Service will only say this amount of range loss is within normal parameters and will not engage further on the issue. Has anyone heard of this particular problem/how to deal with Tesla on it ?
brainhouston
Active Member
For starters, this is Model X forum and 90kWh pack discussion...
I do not see a problem here tho.
Tesla won't cover anything till its 30% degraded.
As many suggested, that rated range display is misleading, switch it to % display and enjoy the car
I do not see a problem here tho.
Tesla won't cover anything till its 30% degraded.
As many suggested, that rated range display is misleading, switch it to % display and enjoy the car
Apologies Brian, I realised after posting that I did so (posted) in the wrong thread…
GoCanes
Member
My April 2016 P90DL MX is also at 199 miles at 90% charge with 80k miles on the odometer. But it was never more than 230 miles at 100% when new (so I’m thinking it’s had 5% decrease). Are you sure about the 250 miles range when new?
The Performance was 250 miles to the 257 for the non-Performance, see for yourself at Compare Side-by-Side
So yep, looks like about 10% down. Unfortunately worse than typical but not bad enough to covered under the battery warranty.
So yep, looks like about 10% down. Unfortunately worse than typical but not bad enough to covered under the battery warranty.
GoCanes
Member
I’m not sure where DOE/EPA got their range estimates, but my MX maxed out at 230 miles when I took delivery. Mind you, there were improvements in battery management and motor efficiencies, so it wouldn’t surprise me that MXs built later in 2016 had more range.
So you have had only about a 4% degradation. That is very good. My November 2016 X90D has lost about 10%. It's 90% used to be about 232 and is now about 209. My guess is that my degradation is about average for a 2016 X90D
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Our BTX5 Raven has degraded about 10% as well.
Seems to be the norm for this pack family.
Those numbers were supplied by Tesla. There's 2015-era reporting about them surfacing before the Model X came out. It's entirely possible that the actual efficiency came out lower at launch than originally projected and Tesla never revised things. However I doubt it as the Design Studio also showed the same 250 mile number in 2016. Model X Design Studio | Tesla
I wonder if your battery pack was just a low performer to begin with. A max of 230 Rated Miles is quite a ways off from the spec of 250. Mine was specified at 257 and actually read 258 at new. If it had shown 237 at delivery I would not have been happy. It was at the very end of 90D production so actually has the last rev Ludicrous capable pack despite being not a P90D.
trayloader
Member
The P90D pulls a much higher amperage out of the battery, plus the pedal curve is much steeper, hence nimble spirited driving feeling.
The have IMHO a bigger buffer on the top and low end due to that plus a higher consumption. My 12/16 P90D is a "drinker", hence degradation.
The balancing procedure, if the observation is justified, is a completely different one than the normal 90D/100Ds.
Past 99% it still loads plenty of juice, but seems artificially capped. My more than the usual balancing.
Either the late ones are small 100 packs or they have a bigger buffer for the enormous amperage draw.
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brainhouston
Active Member
i had a trip a bit ago so charged few times to 95%
i've noticed same route to work (25mi) takes less % now
sure enough the capacity went up...
5k mi ago:
current:
i've noticed same route to work (25mi) takes less % now
sure enough the capacity went up...
5k mi ago:
current:
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Congrats on your BMS completing battery balancing, did you run it all the way down too?
brainhouston
Active Member
Thanks!
Not yet, im scared
Lowest i got so far is 14%, and haven't got to 100% either...
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
That might be enough to keep your BMS mostly accurate, but you gotta expect such fluctuations as the pack ages, usually pronounced for the first few years. If you have an extreme range drop usually you can get that range back by driving to zero and charging to 100%. Don't LEAVE it at 100% for more than several hours (like before a trip or at a charge stop where you are eating is OK), drive off the top 10% before you park it. If you have to park it turn on Sentry mode until you get it down below 80 or 90%. Also, don't be afraid to drive to zero if you are near your charger, there are a few miles below zero to get you home.
That said when your battery starts to get real old you'll start to see sudden drops while driving (I had 11% but it jumped to 2%), when you start to experience these issues you can be a little afraid of driving to zero.
That said when your battery starts to get real old you'll start to see sudden drops while driving (I had 11% but it jumped to 2%), when you start to experience these issues you can be a little afraid of driving to zero.
I generally like the angle of this advice, particularly if someone regularly spends time with the pack between 80-30% for long calendar life. I want to add some background and nuance.
As you noticed with the 11% to 2% drop, there are *not always miles below zero*, particularly if your pack has bad balance. It's often the case that there are more miles, but on an out of balance pack zero can really mean zero, or 2% can mean zero. When trying to balance a pack, assuming you can drive after zero is rolling the dice on needing to wait by the road for a flatbed, and it doesn't do you any good in terms of balance to get that low. It's also not really necessary - more on that later.
It's far more damaging to leave the pack at 0% than at 100%. If you follow this advice, don't sweat the time at 100%, it's no big deal even for a few days. Do charge as soon as possible after getting down close to 0%, as if there is any chance the car sits and gets down to the bottom of the buffer it's a big problem. If the car ends up not getting charged for a while at 0% it can do serious long term damage to the battery, particularly if the pack is significantly out of balance. Time at 100% accelerates calendar aging but even a few weeks spent at that level is very little aging in terms of the overall life of the pack. If you will drive within a few days, no need to run the pack down after charging it to 100%, just take care of it with your next drive.
For the underpinning concept that causes the balance errors, look at the graph on this page: Silicon Lightworks
Note that Tesla uses the battery between about 3% and 98% on that graph, or 2.85v to 4.15v. (more info here What's the battery voltage from 0% to 100%? )
See how the curve is very flat between about 85% and 25%? That's what confuses the BMS. If you always charge to 80% and never get below 30% your BMS will have a very hard time maintaining long term accuracy. There's just not much voltage difference to measure, so it's stuck counting power in and power out without an absolute reference. Even just daily charging to 90% and occasionally taking the car down to 20% will give the system far more data to work with on current SOC of individual cells.
Personally I would not aim for 0% to rebalance an out of balance pack. Going that low is a harder cycle than a shallower cycle, and cycle life is a significant part of pack aging. Even down to 15% is plenty close enough to the bottom for the BMS to get a proper reading, assuming you've been going to 90% or higher at least every once in a while. I charge to 100% before any trip long enough for more than one Supercharger stop, and get the balance for free that way, because good Supercharger stops are often in the 5-10% range at arrival.
With regular charges to 90% and ordinary use, my pack has remained in excellent balance with below average degradation and very consistent measures of capacity. If you don't want to think about balance ever again, just daily charge to 90% and take the car down below 15% from time to time. That's using these cars on easy mode. It won't get the absolute maximum life out of the pack, but it gets very close and it's simple. The Tesla software takes a lot of care to manage the details of the pack for you so that use in the Daily range and following on-screen warnings means you're taking pretty good care of the battery with little effort.
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