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More anti-ev gibberish

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by qwk, Jan 6, 2011.

  1. Dan5

    Dan5 Member

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    #1481 Dan5, Nov 12, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
    Hey, hold on pretty soon AXPW announce their stock performance. My guess is another substantial loss. My concern is that it takes such a small amount to move the stock he may just buying it and say its doing good and dump it the next day....after all its on the pink equivalent board. I wish I could short AXPW, but shorting pinks/OCTBB is a bad idea and finding someone to actually buy the stock hard too (very few if any brokerage firms allow it and others require a substantial escrow)- I guess that's what saved them from tanking sooner, less short interest.
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Has anyone compiled a list of John P's greatest hits? Or more accurately most spectacularly incorrect predictions?
     
  3. LST

    LST Senior Member

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  4. mcornwell

    mcornwell Active Member

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    #1484 mcornwell, Nov 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Or (2) short ribs. Reminded me of one of Chris Rock's first movies...

     
  5. Arnold Panz

    Arnold Panz Model Sig 304, VIN 542

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    This article was linked by Andrew Sullivan in his widely read blog on the Daily Beast this morning. Not surprisingly, the author leaves Tesla completely out of the equation until the very end because Tesla's results on range, popularity and financial solvency cut against his every argument:

    Far From Electrifying

     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I don't know, it certainly had a negative slant but was mostly factually accurate, and did mention Tesla before the end:
    Again, accurate.
     
  7. CapitalistOppressor

    CapitalistOppressor Active Member

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    It recycled the Reuters story about Volt's costing ~$80,000 each to produce. He loosely chains that to reality with his comment that it might take years before GM makes money, but the ~$80,000 number is flawed and deeply debatable even on its own terms.

    As to Tesla, he compared it to Fiskar and stated that their problems are somehow equivalent, when in fact the market trajectory of the two companies are diametrically opposite from one another. Cutting your production forecast because you are a few weeks behind your planned schedule does not make you equivalent to a company flirting with bankruptcy and searching for a buyer willing to save it.

    The bold portions of that paragraph are the conceptual framework of that paragraph, with the rest being descriptive filler. He then transitions to Tesla with the following -

    Setting aside the false equivalency between bankrupt and failing concerns, like Fiskar or A123 Systems, and a rapidly growing company like Tesla, this linkage is factually false in another sense because the author is also equating Tesla with Fiskar's quality problems. Consumer Reports is on record calling the Model S amazing and addictive. There is nothing factual about those comparisons.
     
  8. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Until volume increases that number may be accurate. Even without development costs we don't know what the Volt is costing GM to build at this point.
    Good point on the quality comparisons, but the factual data on Tesla is accurate. As I said it skews negative but I still say the data points are fairly accurate.
     
  9. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/137536

    Counter to what the title claims, this discovery of existing failure mechanisms in lithium cells does not mean they will fail sooner than expected, it just means we've now uncovered another method of failure, which will most likely lead to future improvements.
     
  10. herbvdh

    herbvdh Member

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    He needs to do more research and find out that some of these Lithium batteries have so little Lithium in them it is not worth talking about. I was reading the paperwork from our supplier and the Manufacturers Safety Data Sheet. I would put the percentage here but I have this in my office. I work with a lot of 18630 type Lithium cells same as Tesla'a.
     
  11. NotTarts

    NotTarts Member

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    Eh, they can't really test some batteries and paint all batteries with the same brush. The Volt and Leaf use Manganese spinel, the Model S uses Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC), the i-MiEV uses Lithium-Titanate, the Smart Fortwo EV uses Nickel Cobalt Aluminium (NCA), while the Karma and Spark EV use Lithium Iron Phosphate. Every car on the market pretty much uses a different chemistry.
     
  12. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Most of them share the same basic structures, and as far as I know fail in similar ways, though at different rates. Lithium plating is probably a factor in all of them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's true that lithium batteries have small amounts of lithium in them, but that doesn't mean that lithium plating is not a failure mechanism.
     
  13. GSP

    GSP Member

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    The $80,000/Volt cost is not accurate. Engineering development and tooling costs will be spread across all Volts built; past, present, and future. We don't know how many that will be, but I bet it will be close to GM's original business plan. The article may have its other facts in order, but not this one.

    You are correct that we don't know GM's marginal cost to build one Volt either.

    GSP
     
  14. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    We don't know it but Bob Lutz gave a well reasoned argument that they are at least breaking even - and he should know.
     
  15. NotTarts

    NotTarts Member

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    Just a correction -- there is no "lithium plating" inside the battery. Lithium is dissolved inside a solution to form the electrolyte, so there is no pure lithium inside the battery. The problem in that article refers to lithium ions moving past the anode, which is made from graphite (carbon). I know that the Lithium Titanate batteries used in the i-MiEV use lithium-titanate instead of graphite, but I'm not sure about the other chemistries.
     
  16. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Sorry, but I must correct your correction. "Lithium plating" is the unintended build up of lithium during use. http://lithiumbatteryresearch.com/Plating.php
     
  17. YoungStranger

    YoungStranger Member

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    Autocar (UK magazine) Xmas Special

    "Electric Car vs Horse and Carriage"

    A look at Leaf (and they are not too rude about it as a car), but full of tired cliches about range anxiety. Sorry cant find a link to a electronic version. A few quotes:

    "The Nissan Leaf, the best of the current crop of electric vehicles now on the market" :eek:

    "To avoid using too much battery power in the Leaf, its advisable to use thick clothing so you don't need the heater too often"

    They conclude that Horse and Carriage would win run to London to Brighton and back journey (120 miles).

    The analogy is swapping horses and swapping batteries (which they conclude fairly reasonably is a logistical nightmare)

    Merry Christmas Everybody!:smile:
     
  18. Grendal

    Grendal Active Member

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    Electric Cars Don’t Impress Car-buying Public - 24/7 Wall St.

    An article based on an Indiana University study of 2300 adult drivers. I would think how questions are phrased can get you any result you want. So this study had an anti-EV bias and it was done in August of last year. The Model S is mentioned, but think about where Tesla was in August of 2011. The first public Model S event hadn't even happened yet. The Volt and the Leaf had been out for less than a year and weren't even nationally sold. Only a year old and the study is completely out of date with where EV's are now.
     
  19. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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