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Musk: cabin-facing camera meant for robotaxis but open to other options

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Yeah, but Tesla can't do that because the hardware to do that does not exist in the car. The interior camera it has can't do that job regardless of the software updates they push to it.

"The interior camera does not have IR and UV illuminators" is not the same thing as "the interior camera cannot possibly do that job".

It's like the folks who keep suggesting Tesla somehow software-update the car to have a 360 overhead parking view- despite the cameras being physically incapable of providing one due to type and placement.... or the ones asking for rear-cross-traffic alert despite the car lacking rear radar.

When approaching a parking place, the cameras get a fairly comprehensive view of the surroundings, clearly enough to build a virtual model of the area. No, it can't have a live camera-feed where there are no cameras, but it could directly display what it is able to see and include VR modeling of the obscured areas where it doesn't have direct view. IMO that would be an entirely acceptable alternative, and an exciting differentiation. (Not enough to dodge the existing patents, which is why we won't get it -- but enough for the purpose and entirely possible.)

The aft camera has a wide FOV, and the ability to identify vehicles based solely on successive image frames. Rear cross traffic alert is possible today -- greentheonly posted video showing the rear camera actively identifying cross traffic here, and similar results have been published elsewhere.

Not really possible to do this reliably. There's no 2nd camera, so how can you do 3d positioning of where the airflow should be going superimposed? Even if you could, it would probably be computationally intensive and sort of like those snapchat filters. Not sure wasting computing cycles on that is worth it.

The possible positions of a human in the seat are fairly limited, and driver seat position is known -- that's enough for sufficient precision. (Mind you, I agree it's not worth it, but that's different from it not being possible.)
 
"The interior camera does not have IR and UV illuminators" is not the same thing as "the interior camera cannot possibly do that job".

I mean, it kinda is since the reason those things are on the Caddy camera is so it can do that job.


When approaching a parking place, the cameras get a fairly comprehensive view of the surroundings, clearly enough to build a virtual model of the area.

Not really... there's no cameras that can see below the front hood for example, so if making a tight turn into it there's already invisible (to the camera) space right in front of you now.

More importantly- the most common use of the overhead 360 feature I've see is leaving a space- and since the car has no idea what's in the surrounding too-low-to-see areas while parked it can't show those to you.


No, it can't have a live camera-feed where there are no cameras, but it could directly display what it is able to see and include VR modeling of the obscured areas where it doesn't have direct view.

Hey- here's some guesses about what we think you MIGHT have around you to make driving decisions based on...good luck!

No thanks.

The aft camera has a wide FOV, and the ability to identify vehicles based solely on successive image frames. Rear cross traffic alert is possible today -- greentheonly posted video showing the rear camera actively identifying cross traffic here, and similar results have been published elsewhere.

Not at the speed/distance it would actually be useful though- no.

If a car is coming across in the rear at 2 mph you'll already visually notice before it's an issue.

If one is shooting through the lot at 20 mph the camera will never catch it in time to usefully warn you... that's why virtually every other car with this feature uses rear radar to do it. Which is hardware the Tesla lacks.

It's also why auto-park backs into spots- so that you exit them forward... where radar does exist (and so do more cameras) and even human visibility is vastly better than backing out.
 
I mean, it kinda is since the reason those things are on the Caddy camera is so it can do that job.

Those things are on the Caddy because those engineers decided on that approach. LIDAR units are on the WayMo cars because WayMo decided on that approach. Lockheed put 4 engines on the JetStar because they decided on that approach.

Engineers and designers make decisions every day on how to approach problems; some use extra hardware, some use extra computation, some use the least costly approach, some use the least failure-prone approach, etc. ad infinitum. Just because GM made one set of choices doesn't mean that's the only approach.

Not really... there's no cameras that can see below the front hood for example, so if making a tight turn into it there's already invisible (to the camera) space right in front of you now.

More importantly- the most common use of the overhead 360 feature I've see is leaving a space- and since the car has no idea what's in the surrounding too-low-to-see areas while parked it can't show those to you.

During the approach one or more cameras were likely able to see that area for a period. Likely enough to model what it later cannot see. Also true of vehicles that arrive while our vehicle is still.

Hey- here's some guesses about what we think you MIGHT have around you to make driving decisions based on...good luck!

If you want to hypothesize the duck that sneaks in and then nests under the front bumper blind spot while I'm parked, then I kinda doubt I could see the duck on the tiny display anyway -- if I didn't see it while walking up, the duck is getting squished. I'm okay with that.

Meanwhile, the curb is staying exactly where it was as I rolled up, and I'm okay with a portion of it being interpolated.

Not at the speed/distance it would actually be useful though- no.

If a car is coming across in the rear at 2 mph you'll already visually notice before it's an issue.

If one is shooting through the lot at 20 mph the camera will never catch it in time to usefully warn you... that's why virtually every other car with this feature uses rear radar to do it. Which is hardware the Tesla lacks.

It's also why auto-park backs into spots- so that you exit them forward... where radar does exist (and so do more cameras) and even human visibility is vastly better than backing out.

Agree to mildly disagree. I'm not convinced any system using any technology is providing useful warning against a 20mph cross-traffic threat -- at 20mph even the radar-based systems aren't giving enough warning for human reaction times. (It's possible an automatic braking system could help at that speed and those ranges -- but warning the meatbag would be too late.)

You mention "visually notice"; I thought the point was that it's a blind situation? Assuming the adjacent vehicle blocking the view is the same length as the 3, the rear cam can see at least 10-15 feet further than the driver can. Is that the 150 feet that Bosch claims for its top-of-the-line package? No, but it's not chopped liver, and it's enough for a useful warning at typical parking lot speeds.

It is clearly not why auto-park backs into spots, however. For one thing, the radar Tesla is using is utterly useless for cross-traffic warning. The ARS 4-B radar module has two beam shapes: 45deg and 9deg, and the maximum range of 150ft is only available using the 9deg beam. Useless for side view. Unless one of us was in the room when the design decision was being made that auto-park would back in, we can't say why it was made -- but it wasn't for a hypothetical future use of the front radar for cross-traffic.

(On that tangent, for a camera based cross-traffic warning, it would be better to nose-in; the rear camera has a slightly wider FOV than even the front wide camera.)

(If you ask me, auto-park backs in because that is the One True Way -- but I don't really know any more than you do.)
 
Those things are on the Caddy because those engineers decided on that approach.

If by approach you mean "required to actually do the job the camera is there for" then sure.

Which is why the Tesla camera, without those things, and without being in the proper location to do the same job physically can not do that job



Engineers and designers make decisions every day on how to approach problems; some use extra hardware, some use extra computation, some use the least costly approach, some use the least failure-prone approach, etc. ad infinitum. Just because GM made one set of choices doesn't mean that's the only approach.

I mean- it kinda does. Because no amount of software or computation will let a camera see in the dark that lacks the hardware to do so. Or to track eye movement it's physically incapable of seeing due to placement and low resolution.

Software isn't magic.


During the approach one or more cameras were likely able to see that area for a period. Likely enough to model what it later cannot see. Also true of vehicles that arrive while our vehicle is still.

Only if you plan to keep the AP computer cranking full blast to continually compute every object location (and guessed location for things going out of view) for 100% of the time the car is parked.

People already complain about the drain from sentry just having the cameras on, let alone churning the computer.



Agree to mildly disagree. I'm not convinced any system using any technology is providing useful warning against a 20mph cross-traffic threat -- at 20mph even the radar-based systems aren't giving enough warning for human reaction times. (It's possible an automatic braking system could help at that speed and those ranges -- but warning the meatbag would be too late.)

Yes, but the auto braking system as you note WOULD help at that speed and range.

On a radar system. Which the Tesla doesn't have in the rear.

But 20mph is only about 30 feet per second. So you're incorrect- 150 feet of warning (what the RCTA radar systems are rated for max range) would give you 5 full seconds of warning. Which is plenty of time to react.


You mention "visually notice"; I thought the point was that it's a blind situation? Assuming the adjacent vehicle blocking the view is the same length as the 3, the rear cam can see at least 10-15 feet further than the driver can.

In which case you'd need to visually notice an approaching car on the rear cam display.


Is that the 150 feet that Bosch claims for its top-of-the-line package? No, but it's not chopped liver, and it's enough for a useful warning at typical parking lot speeds.

...not really?

At 10 mph (half the speed we were just discussing) a car is moving ~15 feet per second. So your 10-15 extra feet gains you 2/3rd to 1 second of warning.

A controlled study on human driver braking reaction time found it averages 2.3 seconds

source:
https://copradar.com/redlight/factors/IEA2000_ABS51.pdf

So even at 5 mph you'd come up short on the amount of warning being useful for the average driver.

Radar on the other hand (which, again, other cars with RCTA have and the Tesla does not) as we just discussed would provide useful warnings even at 2-4 times that 5 mph speed.


It is clearly not why auto-park backs into spots, however. For one thing, the radar Tesla is using is utterly useless for cross-traffic warning. The ARS 4-B radar module has two beam shapes: 45deg and 9deg, and the maximum range of 150ft is only available using the 9deg beam.

This is not at all accurate.

Here's the specs-
http://continental.automotive-appro...9jb2h6iPBscOBK9nlyf-w8Ft_sgfIeFDNdiQCIaRDQv_a

the 9 degree beam range is listed at 120m (with notes that it actually can go out to 170m)

the 45 degree beam is 55m


So it's the wider beam that gets you about 150 feet (more like 180 in fact)...not the narrow one, which goes much further.
 
It is clearly not why auto-park backs into spots, however. For one thing, the radar Tesla is using is utterly useless for cross-traffic warning. The ARS 4-B radar module has two beam shapes: 45deg and 9deg, and the maximum range of 150ft is only available using the 9deg beam. Useless for side view. Unless one of us was in the room when the design decision was being made that auto-park would back in, we can't say why it was made -- but it wasn't for a hypothetical future use of the front radar for cross-traffic.

This is not at all accurate.

Here's the specs-
http://continental.automotive-appro...9jb2h6iPBscOBK9nlyf-w8Ft_sgfIeFDNdiQCIaRDQv_a

the 9 degree beam range is listed at 120m (with notes that it actually can go out to 170m)

the 45 degree beam is 55m


So it's the wider beam that gets you about 150 feet (more like 180 in fact)...not the narrow one, which goes much further.

I think we're beating a dead horse, but I did want to acknowledge that I misread meters as feet on the data sheet.

That said, I still believe this module is not useful for cross traffic -- 45 degrees is considerably less than the 150 degree FOV of the rear camera that you say isn't side-looking enough; 45 degree FOV is only able to see 4 feet to the side at 10 feet ahead of the transceiver. Purpose-built cross-traffic radar has side-looking beams. (See discussion of "squinting" and the relevant beam diagrams for RCTA/FCTA on pp9-10: https://autonomoustuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/UMRR_Automotive_Type_146_Data_Sheet.pdf)
 
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