Musk Says Model 3 Brakes Need Work, Firmware Update Coming in a ‘Few Days’

Responding to Consumer Reports’ criticism of the Model 3’s braking ability, Tesla CEO Elon Musk tweeted Monday that the company will “make sure all Model 3’s having amazing braking ability at no expense to customers.”

Consumer Reports said the Model 3’s stopping distance of 152 feet from 60 mph was far worse than any contemporary car they have tested. Musk called their results “strange” and inconsistent with other reviews. He suggested that performance may vary by vehicle and Consumer Reports may have had their hands on a dud.

https://twitter.com/x/status/998739763543736320

Musk later tweeted that braking tweaks can be made through a firmware update, which Tesla intends to ship in a few days. He said the company is dedicated to making the Model 3’s braking better than any comparable car.

Consumer Reports also said the Model 3’s stiff ride, unsupportive rear seat and excessive wind noise at highway speeds hurt its road-test score. Musk said the magazine was testing an early production car and those issues have since been addressed for cars coming off the assembly line today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/998778081492926465

Tesla has acknowledged that the Model 3’s braking needs improvement. The good news is that the company can seemingly avoid an expensive recall and make those performance improvements via a software update.

 

[sajakh]

Those are massively overpriced.

I agree!

These seem like much better options :

Model 3 Brakes

The Stoptechs sport and street appear to be the options more suitable for s street use with good initial bite. On my previous WRX, I used the StopTech Street Performance and their initial bite was great. The brake dust however wasn't. Does anyone have any experience with these two new StopTech pads?

 

[whitex]

There was a coil upgrade that Tesla offered for free to 2017 Model 3 owners. There is now a "damper" aka shocks upgrade that presumably will be a free retrofit as well.

But it isn't a recall as it is a comfort/performance preference not a safety issue. You have to request the change because you don't like the ride. If you do like the ride three is no reason to replace the springs or dampers.

2017 Model 3 could get springs and dampers
early 2018 Model 3 could get dampers
current Model 3 already has both

No reason for a recall, it's a minor change for comfort at the cost of performance.


For the wind noise issue, they remove/replace the glass. New installation method. Again if you find the wind noise objectionable let your service center know. It's not a safety issue so it isn't a recall.


The braking issue is not a hardware issue, it's a software issue. No recall, because OTA updates will fix. If for any reason the OTA update won't fix it I'm sure there would be a recall for the brake issue. That is safety related and there is no way Tesla won't do what it takes to fix on every Model 3.

Thanks for the list of available upgrades. For the wind noise, I hope they can fix it better than Model S. We've had 4 so far, the last 2 (2017/2018) are nice and quiet, but the 2015 has wind noise since new which SC gave a couple of solid tries to fix, but sadly I think it would take putting noise insulation everywhere to get there.

I am a little confused by your statement that braking is a software issue though. In Tesla testing it was shorter, in CR testing it was longer. If it is a software issue, then it sounds to me like either software has poor QA and braking performance gets better and worse between releases, or Tesla didn't test it until some version later than what CR's car was running. Either one sounds scary, but which do you think it is?

Of course, Elon could be just buying time until they fix it in new cars, then come out with "the brakes on older Model 3's are totally capable of shorter braking distance, just not the car as a whole". He did it for 691hp P85D, stuck to his guns how the car is capable of 691hp, promised "passing speeds OTA", then once P90D third generation actually produced near that power, he finally admitted that P85D has motors capable of 691hp, but not the battery or wiring that could support it, therefore the car would require a 50% power boost to actually produce 691hp, which Tesla will not pay for.

 

[dhanson865]

I am a little confused by your statement that braking is a software issue though. In Tesla testing it was shorter, in CR testing it was longer. If it is a software issue, then it sounds to me like either software has poor QA and braking performance gets better and worse between releases, or Tesla didn't test it until some version later than what CR's car was running. Either one sounds scary, but which do you think it is?

course, Elon could be just buying time until they fix it in new cars, then come out with "the brakes on older Model 3's are totally capable of shorter braking distance, just not the car as a whole".

Neither, the variable behavior happens on the same car with the same hardware and software. There is no newer or older involved.

All Model 3s with the current firmware have variability in braking distance. Presumably this weekend a software update will fix that.

There won't be a newer version of the car fixes it, they have to fix it on every Model 3 made from the beginning of time by law.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.d...y_unrelated_uncodified_provisions_may2013.pdf

TITLE 49, UNITED STATES CODE
SUBTITLE VI. MOTOR VEHICLE AND DRIVER PROGRAMS
PART A – GENERAL
CHAPTER 301. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY

I don't know the code by heart but If Tesla can't fix it with a near 100% guarantee using software they will be forced to replace any possibly offending hardware. The fines for not doing so would be greater than the cost of fixing the issue properly.

30165. Civil penalty
(a) Civil penalties.
--
34
(1) In general.
--A person that violates any of section 30112, 30115, 30117 through 30122, 30123(a)*,30125(c), 30127,30141through30147, or 31137, or a regulation prescribed thereunder, is liable to theUnited States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 for each violation. A separate violation occurs for each motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment and for each failure or refusal to allow orperform an act required by any of those sections. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $35,000,000

I'm no lawyer but I think that is the correct penalty.

- $5,000 for each violation. A separate violation occurs for each motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment and for each failure or refusal to allow or perform an act required by any of those sections. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $35,000,000.

But that is the penalty for not doing a recall, not notifying people, not fixing the issue. There is no penalty for fixing it. And I fully expect Tesla to fix the issue.

 

[Marsnaut]

Wouldn't Brembo cover the cost of the brake repairs anyways?

 

[dhanson865]

Wouldn't Brembo cover the cost of the brake repairs anyways?

Brembo would only cover problems with defective individual parts. Tesla would be responsible for the overall systems as used in their cars. Tesla would be required to do the recall notifications, labor, software, etc. Entirely possible Brembo has no liability for this issue.

Imagine these cases

A. Brembo pads are weak and crumble under heat. Brembo pays. It costs Tesla some, but Brembo covers a huge portion.

B. Brembo pads are perfect, but Teslas install of them was aligned incorrect, or used a control system that didn't apply pressure to the pads correctly, or any other sort of issue where the parts are all perfect but the whole doesn't work as designed. Tesla pays, Brembo is free and clear.

If your thought is Brembo makes more than pads then again I'd say the brembo parts aren't suspect. Discs, calipers, brake modules, clips, whatever sub component you think it might be.

Musk says it's a software issue so I'm saying Brembo is not worried at all. For that matter Tesla isn't worried about "brake repairs", they think they can fix it with an OTA software update.

 

[MP3Mike]

There won't be a newer version of the car fixes it, they have to fix it on every Model 3 made from the beginning of time by law.

So exactly what law are you saying they are breaking? I am not aware of any law stating that a 60-0 stop has to perform to a specific maximum distance.

 

[whitex]

Neither, the variable behavior happens on the same car with the same hardware and software. There is no newer or older involved.

All Model 3s with the current firmware have variability in braking distance. Presumably this weekend a software update will fix that.

There won't be a newer version of the car fixes it, they have to fix it on every Model 3 made from the beginning of time by law.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.d...y_unrelated_uncodified_provisions_may2013.pdf

​

I don't know the code by heart but If Tesla can't fix it with a near 100% guarantee using software they will be forced to replace any possibly offending hardware. The fines for not doing so would be greater than the cost of fixing the issue properly.



I'm no lawyer but I think that is the correct penalty.

- $5,000 for each violation. A separate violation occurs for each motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment and for each failure or refusal to allow or perform an act required by any of those sections. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $35,000,000.

But that is the penalty for not doing a recall, not notifying people, not fixing the issue. There is no penalty for fixing it. And I fully expect Tesla to fix the issue.

Where in the above linked document does it state what is the maximum allowed braking distance 60-0? Is there a mandated standard somewhere?

 

[dhanson865]

So exactly what law are you saying they are breaking? I am not aware of any law starting that a 60-0 stop had to perform to a specific distance.

I'm not saying they are breaking a law. I was saying whitex was asking some really odd questions given what we know and what the penalties of not fixing it would be.

Where in the above linked document does it state what is the maximum allowed braking distance 60-0? Is there a mandated standard somewhere?

The issue is the braking distance is variable due to a software defect. If they don't correct that issue people could get into collisions caused by the software issue.

If distance X is the average stopping distance when the software is working correctly and distance Y is the distance added by the software problem. Then any collision that happens between X feet and X+Y feet was caused by the software.

All it takes is for people to complain to NHTSA about the issue and that creates the trigger for the law. If it can be proven as a defect and that defect isn't remedied there is a penalty.

It doesn't matter about 60-0, it matters if you can classify it as a defect that affects the safety of the driver and/or passengers.

As soon as Elon Musk acknowledged the validity of the issue that put in motion the NTHSA rules about fixing a safety issue. Tesla has to do it in a reasonable time frame and document that they did so.

So posting something about how they addressed the 691HP (performance issue) by changing new cars but not old cars doesn't even come close to the same rules as fixing a safety issue. Safety recalls have a set procedure they have to follow and there are penalties for nox fixing safety issues.

 

[barjohn]

While there is no standard (that I know of) for 60-0 braking distance, the same amount of pressure should stop you in the same distance under the same test conditions. You shouldn't have to guess how much stopping distance you will need because the distance is inconsistent. Further when you are do far off from other similar vehicles you create a potential legal liability in the event that an accident occurs and the driver claims it was due to faulty brakes failing to stop the vehicle within a reasonable distance as demonstrable in other similar class vehicles and the manufacturer knew it was due to a defect and failed to correct it. In all likelihood the reasonable standard would be applied.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Consumer reports clarified that their Model 3 indeed posted very good stopping distances in their initial test. Then they repeated those high speed maximum braking tests and that is where the longer stops occured.

They posted the longest stop of the 6. Evidently the brakes degrade if you do one high speed stop after another.

Consumer Reports does all their testing this way, but the headlines just picked up the longest stopping distance and did not indicate that this was after many continous stopping runs.

Elon spoke with Consumer Reports for over an hour, and now understands their concern. The brakes and tires are capable of competitive stopping distances, but need to be looked at to see how multiple short stops could be made better.

He will try Software updates first, but is also open to looking at the hardware.

 

[Uncle Paul]

This braking distance with multiple stops is one of the strengths of the new Tesla Semi.

Standard trucks often overheat their brakes when running with heavy loads down long steep hills. Sometimes the brakes get so hot they catch the hydraulic fluid on fire.

Tesla offers standard regenerative braking on all their vehicles. This allows loaded truck to simply back off the pedal to slow down the vehicle, instead of riding the brakes. A huge advance in safety and a big cost advantage in brake pad replacements, adjustments, and repairs.

Additional benefit is that you are refilling your battery as you slow down your vehicle...better range.

 

[dhanson865]

Further when you are do far off from other similar vehicles you create a potential legal liability in the event that an accident occurs and the driver claims it was due to faulty brakes failing to stop the vehicle within a reasonable distance as demonstrable in other similar class vehicles and the manufacturer knew it was due to a defect and failed to correct it

And after Elons first tweet you can't say Tesla doesn't know about it.

That was my whole point. Tesla has officially acknowledged an issue. Thus they have to fix it or face civil liability from multiple fronts.

Heaven forbid I try and put a dollar figure to the liability.

 

[Zoomit]

Consumer Reports does all their testing this way, but the headlines just picked up the longest stopping distance and did not indicate that this was after many continous stopping runs

The tests were NOT continuous. Brake pad/rotor/fluid heating was not the issue. CR let the car cool overnight and retested the next day.

 

[mongo]

The tests were NOT continuous. Brake pad/rotor/fluid heating was not the issue. CR let the car cool overnight and retested the next day.

They did multiple 0-60-0 runs with one mile cool down between, got weird results, let the car sit overnight, got the same weird results.

So persistent SW cal or HW change (glazed pads).
Sounds like SW cal change.

 

[whitex]

I'm not saying they are breaking a law. I was saying whitex was asking some really odd questions given what we know and what the penalties of not fixing it would be.



The issue is the braking distance is variable due to a software defect. If they don't correct that issue people could get into collisions caused by the software issue.

If distance X is the average stopping distance when the software is working correctly and distance Y is the distance added by the software problem. Then any collision that happens between X feet and X+Y feet was caused by the software.

All it takes is for people to complain to NHTSA about the issue and that creates the trigger for the law. If it can be proven as a defect and that defect isn't remedied there is a penalty.

It doesn't matter about 60-0, it matters if you can classify it as a defect that affects the safety of the driver and/or passengers.

As soon as Elon Musk acknowledged the validity of the issue that put in motion the NTHSA rules about fixing a safety issue. Tesla has to do it in a reasonable time frame and document that they did so.

So posting something about how they addressed the 691HP (performance issue) by changing new cars but not old cars doesn't even come close to the same rules as fixing a safety issue. Safety recalls have a set procedure they have to follow and there are penalties for nox fixing safety issues.

Elon never admitted it was a safety issue. All he has to do is claim the longer distance as normal braking, and the shorter one as "above and beyond" bonus the customer gets if they are lucky. If there are other cars allowed the same braking distance as the longer test result (which there are), they are in the clear by setting that as the spec bar (as they did when they finally published the spec that P85D only produces 463hp on its best day). If they wait until they actually fix it in the new cars (like they did for the 691hp performance) it won't hurt any new car sales.

 

[milleron]

It should be noted that CR simply choose not to give the Model 3 its "Recommended" status. It did give it 2 of a possible 5 points on braking, not zero. Its vehicle rating is 72 overall which is within hailing distance of the scores of the "Recommended" Bolt and Prius ( both 77 altho the Prius had no points deducted for "charge time" but was still awarded 5 points for "fuel economy" even though its MPG rating is far, far below 3's MPGe ). CR identified NO safety issue. If they had, they'd have assigned it the dreaded "Not Recommended" status, which they certainly did NOT do.
I don't understand from whence all the talk of "liability," recalls, and Federal fines is coming. What am I missing (other than that CR has their well-meaning head up their alimentary tract for comparing a Model 3 to the hybrid Prius without allowing economy to cancel out charging time)?

 

[DefPlug]

I repeated the CR 10 stop 60-0 test in my own model 3 VIn 12xxx on the same all-season 18" tires and had a best 60-0 of 122 feet and one outlyer at 136 feet but the average was 128 feet. A far cry from 150'. What are they doing differently?

 

[DefPlug]

Those are massively overpriced.

This looks like a waaaay better option:

MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

 

[MP3Mike]

I repeated the CR 10 stop 60-0 test in my own model 3 VIn 12xxx on the same all-season 18" tires and had a best 60-0 of 122 feet and one outlyer at 136 feet but the average was 128 feet. A far cry from 150'. What are they doing differently?

What firmware do you have on your Model 3?

 

[Matias]