My request that the Arizona Attorney General's office investigate Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode

[alcibiades]

Those of you who seem to be so happy with this need to step back and look at the bigger picture...

Jeff

That Tesla could be expected to be both an amazing leader in EV vehicles and still be honest?

What do you mean?

 

[Canuck]

Very possible. I have only gone this route once before and it was settled quickly. I thought I posted this accurately. They have started an investigation based on my complaint. What Tesla's response is and the AG determination is anyone's guess.

In your prior complaint, did the issue only apply to you or to everyone who bought the product? If it involved everyone, did the resolution apply to everyone or only you?

The AG's office first acts as a facilitator, more like a mediator, rather than in an adversarial role, such as when it pursues a business for a wrongdoing. Of course, they facilitate the resolution of countless complaints, including your prior one. But we can't take much from one off resolutions. Even if a business is in the right, they'd often rather pay, or meet the particular customer's demands, than be involved with a complaint by a customer passed onto them from the AG's office. Moreover, the nature of those resolutions are private, unlike court filings, which are public except in rare cases where they are sealed.

As to whether you posted this accurately, I didn't mean to suggest that you had any intention to mislead, I was just expecting some kind of press release from the AG's office like the ones here:

News - Releases

When I saw the form letter you posted, it was quite different than what I expected -- that's all.

Please keep us advised of the status of your complaint.

That Tesla could be expected to be both an amazing leader in EV vehicles and still be honest? What do you mean?

I can't speak for him buy I do laugh when it comes to the high expectations people have of large corporations. I won't go so far to suggest that Tesla lied regarding this issue, it could easily be something they discovered later and dialed it down when the concerns were made known to them, which is different from a lie, but to answer your question, I expect all large corporations to lie to us, including Tesla. Some here would love to see Tesla driven into the ground over this issue, and others, putting all those American workers on the unemployment line and severely hampering our transition to EVs. Not me. I'll keep the baby and the bathwater. I never expect any bathwater to be clean.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Those of you who seem to be so happy with this need to step back and look at the bigger picture...

And what might that be? The bigger picture requires Tesla to act dishonestly and unethically?

 

[azdryheat]

In your prior complaint, did the issue only apply to you or to everyone who bought the product? If it involved everyone, did the resolution apply to everyone or only you?

The AG's office first acts as a facilitator, more like a mediator, rather than in an adversarial role, such as when it pursues a business for a wrongdoing. Of course, they facilitate the resolution of countless complaints, including your prior one. But we can't take much from one off resolutions. Even if a business is in the right, they'd often rather pay, or meet the particular customer's demands, than be involved with a complaint by a customer passed onto them from the AG's office. Moreover, the nature of those resolutions are private, unlike court filings, which are public except in rare cases where they are sealed.

As to whether you posted this accurately, I didn't mean to suggest that you had any intention to mislead, I was just expecting some kind of press release from the AG's office like the ones here:

News - Releases

When I saw the form letter you posted, it was quite different than what I expected -- that's all.

Please keep us advised of the status of your complaint.



I can't speak for him buy I do laugh when it comes to the high expectations people have of large corporations. I won't go so far to suggest that Tesla lied regarding this issue, it could easily be something they discovered later and dialed it down when the concerns were made known to them, which is different from a lie, but to answer your question, I expect all large corporations to lie to us, including Tesla. Some here would love to see Tesla driven into the ground over this issue, and others, putting all those American workers on the unemployment line. Not me. I'll keep the baby and the bathwater. I never expect any bathwater to be clean.

The last complaint was to correct what a company was doing to everyone involved and they agreed to make the changes in the way they do business that I asked for.

I guess it seemed like Tesla was not just another big corporation. With Elon so visibly leading the company, it never occurred to me that this would play out the way it did. Especially after Jon McNeil (President of Global Sales and Service) stated on this site: "Based on your input we have decided to remove all software performance reductions tied to frequent max power usage. These changes will roll out with our next software update (in about three weeks)."

 

[dhanson865]

I have never done well with the BBB. As a small business owner, I can tell you that you can buy a good rating. Also, they tend to favor the business IMO. Your results may vary.

I don't know how it is in AZ but California Leaf owners got Nissan to replace out of warranty battery packs when the capacity dropped outside the 60,000 mile warranty by making a BBB claim. It was denied on the first pass, they had to appeal but the appeal is where they got to bring in the data and witnesses and that is what won the complaint.

See Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty - Page 14 - My Nissan Leaf Forum

The whole thread is a good read from page 1 but if you want the TL;DR version

here's what worked for me:

1. Get a service record for all four or more battery tests.
2. If you've taken your car into the dealer previously for battery degradation concerns, then get copies of those.

*** This is important because it shows to the Arbitrator that you gave Nissan a chance to acknowledge the issue and they refused to repair the problem ***

3. Go to the dealer again and ask that them to inspect the battery, due to severe battery degradation.
4. Ask that it be replaced under the 8 year 100k warranty, since the degradation amounts to a defect in the battery.

*** Bring data on each capacity bar disappearing (Mileage/Date) for each occurrence.***

5. Ask the dealer to open a Case with Nissan North America about the severe battery degradation. If they refuse, then call Nissan North America and open a case yourself.
6. If Nissan North America rejects your claim, then open a case with the BBB Auto Line.

*** In your BBB Auto Line Case: Provide Warranty Manual information on 8 year/100k mile Battery Warranty information, Nissan Marketing Material about the battery lasting 8 - 10 years, along with all the documentation from steps 1 and 4. If possible, request a 3rd party technical assessment of the vehicle (I had to wait until the appeal portion of the process to do this). ***

7. If you lose your case with the BBB, you can appeal it. (I had to do this in order to get all my evidence considered and a technical assessment.)
8. If they accept your appeal, then a formal meeting with the Arbitrator should be called at this stage, and you'll probably need witnesses and all your documentation again. A technical assessment may occur at the trial or be scheduled later on.

I went into these meetings without a bunch of technical information, because I wanted them to know that I relied on what I was told by Nissan and that the car's battery was not performing per their documentation or marketing. I also let them know how this problem impacted me personally and my family, due to the inability to complete certain commutes (pick up kids from sport, school activities, etc.), which I was initially able to. I didn't argue over the technical details or get upset with the Nissan counsel. Lastly, I had two witnesses, which you might want to have to support your case.

This process took nine months to complete and occurred here in San Diego. I'm not sure what the experience might be like at other locations.

-----

The BBB process took awhile but I appreciate the professionalism and service they provided to me throughout the process. This process began back in January 2015.

My NEW battery was installed on 9/17/2015 and I took possession of my vehicle on 9/18/2015. I now have ALL 12 Capacity Bars! I can't tell you how much relief this has given to my family.

Thank you to everyone who gave me feedback and suggestions throughout this process. I'd also like to thank the two forum member's who volunteered to be witnesses at my Arbitration hearing.

If you have a Nissan Leaf battery that is beyond 60,000 miles and exhibits severe battery degradation, then you may want to consider opening a case with Nissan to have them investigate, then go through the BBB Arbitration process if you cannot come to a mutual agreement.

Interesting to note, the replacement battery has a warranty that is good for only 12 months.

 

[Canuck]

I guess it seemed like Tesla was not just another big corporation.

Don't let any large corporation fool you, like Apple tried to do back in 1984 when they paid big bucks for a Superbowl commercial telling us they were not just another big corporation like IBM...

1984 (advertisement) - Wikipedia

Now look at Apple. They make IBM look good! There were no suicide nets over making IBM computers.

"Only the good die young" applies more to large corporations than humans. Market forces, like evolution, do not favour honesty and integrity. They reward ruthless actions. I'm not making excuses for Tesla or Apple. I'm just calling it as I see it. Tesla will go the way of Apple, if they haven't already. It's inevitable, in my view at least. Call me "cynical" if you want but I prefer "realist".

The last complaint was to correct what a company was doing to everyone involved and they agreed to make the changes in the way they do business that I asked for.

What are you asking for in relation to your Tesla complaint?

 

[azdryheat]

Don't let any large corporation fool you, like Apple tried to do back in 1984 when they paid big bucks for a Superbowl commercial telling us they were not just another big corporation like IBM...

1984 (advertisement) - Wikipedia

Now look at Apple. They make IBM look good! There were no suicide nets over making IBM computers.

"Only the good die young" applies more to large corporations than humans. Market forces, like evolution, do not favour honesty and integrity. They reward ruthless actions. I'm not making excuses for Tesla or Apple. I'm just calling it as I see it. Tesla will go the way of Apple, if they haven't already. It's inevitable, in my view at least. Call me "cynical" if you want but I prefer "realist".



What are you asking for in relation to your Tesla complaint?

I am asking that if they don't restore the original power, they either offer compensation to make up for the loss of power or a full refund with the removal of Ludicrous. This would apply to all Ludicrous Tesla's in AZ.

 

[u00mem9]

This is actually great for Tesla. Somehow they decided they could sell something and then settle the details in a way that protects them from financial risk by changing the product after the sale. I'm sure that was an exciting notion in the PowerPoint, but it's not going to stand up in court.

Tesla are their own worst enemy on this stuff, and a nice little action against them will help them realize this is not a good way to conduct business.

 

[Canuck]

I am asking that if they don't restore the original power, they either offer compensation to make up for the loss of power or a full refund with the removal of Ludicrous. This would apply to all Ludicrous Tesla's in AZ.

Am I correct in assuming this is asking a whole lot more than what you did in your previous complaint to the AG?

This is actually great for Tesla. Somehow they decided they could sell something and then settle the details in a way that protects them from financial risk by changing the product after the sale. I'm sure that was an exciting notion in the PowerPoint, but it's not going to stand up in court. Tesla are their own worst enemy on this stuff, and a nice little action against them will help them realize this is not a good way to conduct business.

What "action"? Usually that word refers to a legal action and you even mention "court" in your post but I am not aware of a legal action. Are you? Or, is the "action" you are referring to the form letter Tesla will be getting from the Arizona's AG's office? If so, it won't even so much as make a ripple in the Tesla corporate machine. This is just part of "business as usual" for a large corporation. Your post makes it seem like Tesla did what VW did with the AG breathing down VW's neck. While you may see it that way, I will again predict Tesla will send a reply along the lines of their hp response and Arizona's AG office will say it's a civil matter between the complainant and Tesla. But that's only my opinion and I've been wrong lots before.

It will certainly be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[oktane]

Let's not forget refunding money paid for AP2. Why are they such greedy pigs?

 

[iMrMark]

I, like others, expected a formal news release from Mark Brnovich (/the/ AG). Not the CP office within the AGs department as a whole. Don't get me wrong, it's cool, good on you for speaking your mind and getting your tax dollar's worth.

What does Tesla say about it when you ask them? I mean, it's a statement of record that the setting was going to change to a different method. Did they say when that would be when you followed up?

I'm assuming you've asked based on your tone with this whole thing and am curious as to the official response you've received.

 

[AudubonB]

...I thought I posted this accurately...

No, you did not - not according to what I consider the word "accurately" to mean.

Were you to have wished to be accurate, you should have entitled this thread something along the lines of (I know, it's too long):

"I filed a complaint with my state's Attorney General's Office regarding Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode and I received a response."

You do, however, get high marks for a click-bait thread title.

 

[kelly]

You do, however, get high marks for a click-bait thread title.

I agree completely. I clicked on this thread thinking something had been announced.

The Consumer Protection Section of the AG's Office receives thousands of complaints against all kinds of companies every year. They send the form letter the OP received in every instance. If asked, it is their policy to not disclose whether they are investigating any particular company. If they are conducting an investigation, it may or may not result in legal action. At any rate, it is likely to be a long time before it is known whether an investigation is underway.

 

[Xolt]

What happens when an owner of a high performance car (Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette...) breaks something on their car due to drag racing?

Do those manufacturers willingly replace parts or tell the owners the repairs are not covered under warranty?

I have had great luck with warranted repairs on Porsche, BMW's and years ago on Corvettes. That is the beauty of the franchised dealer system, the dealers existence relies on satisfying the buyer. Direct sales seem great but the dealer is no longer an intermediary between the owner and manufacturer.

 

[Canuck]

Were you to have wished to be accurate, you should have entitled this thread something along the lines of (I know, it's too long):

"I filed a complaint with my state's Attorney General's Office regarding Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode and I received a response."

Better yet:

"I filed a complaint with my state's Attorney General's Office regarding Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode and I have not yet received a response."

If he got a response, I missed that part.

 

[azdryheat]

Better yet:

"I filed a complaint with my state's Attorney General's Office regarding Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode and I have not yet received a response."

If he got a response, I missed that part.

I did receive a response that they are investigating this. Feel free to ignore this if it is not enough for you. If you have ever been through this, it is a long slow process. I'm old enough to have gone through the civil legal system a few times. Longest took 7 years before I prevailed. It's not like TV, where you get instant results.

 

[Canuck]

I did receive a response that they are investigating this. Feel free to ignore this if it is not enough for you. If you have ever been through this, it is a long slow process. I'm old enough to have gone through the civil legal system a few times. Longest took 7 years before I prevailed. It's not like TV, where you get instant results.

No need to get defensive. I told you a couple of times to keep us posted and that I am interested in the outcome...

Please keep us advised of the status of your complaint.

It will certainly be interesting to see how it plays out.

Also, I've practiced insurance defence law for 25 years and I've been involved in numerous product liability and defect cases. You don't need to tell me how it works or how long it takes.

As to the fact that you "did receive a response that they are investigating this" -- we agree -- but as I said in my first reply to you...

I guess writing to the AG, who will now pass your complaint onto Tesla and ask for their response, is an "investigation" of sorts but it's not the type of AG investigation I expected when I read your title to this thread. What you posted is a form letter, the body of which does not even need to be revised for anyone complaining about any product. I could send in a complaint about my Hot Wheel's Tesla being defective and I would likely get the same letter.

Again, please keep us posted on the status of your complaint.

And, if you don't mind, please answer my question to you in post 29 above.

 

[kelly]

I did receive a response that they are investigating this.

The response you received is the form letter that goes out to everyone that submits a complaint. The form letter does not state that they are investigating. They will send a copy of your complaint to Tesla and ask them to respond to your complaint. When they get that response they will forward it to you. If you think that the Arizona Attorney General's Office opens an investigation based on every complaint received then you have grossly overestimated the manpower of that office.

Bottom line is that IF there is any eventual investigation, you are unlikely to know about it until you hear about it in the news. And if there is ever any legal action, whatever resolution comes out of that may or may not benefit you in the way you hope. Please re-read the letter and note the "you may want to pursue this with your own attorney" language.

 

[ecarfan]

I've reported this thread to the moderator asking for the thread title to be revised since it is misleading and inaccurate. Thanks to @kelly for clarifying the situation.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Great. Now Tesla is going to add language that if you race your car the warranty is void. Thanks dude.