Sure seems from what he has posted, he is doing all the system he purchased is designed to do. Cannot get over 8 with the inverters he purchased.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
My Tesla Solar Roof is underperforming by at least 20%
- Thread starter jimm01
- Start date
What was the annual kWh of your solar roof in your contract? That is the only thing that is even close to a performance guarantee.
FWIW, our 12.75 kW roof never generates more than 9 kW at one time. But it looks like it will exceed the annual 10,000 kWh mark listed in the contract even with our shading issues.
FWIW, our 12.75 kW roof never generates more than 9 kW at one time. But it looks like it will exceed the annual 10,000 kWh mark listed in the contract even with our shading issues.
Deceptive in the sense that when you see an advertisement for a McDonald's hamburger, you know that's not what it looks like when you actually buy one.
But it's not Deceptive in legal sense... at least with current regulation and laws.
I can see from a consumer protection standpoint, solar and ESS have many avenues for improvement. Even though we may think of Solar as a fairly developed industry, it's still pretty new for most customers. As such, the government hasn't been too strict on imposing oversight (thank goodness); and has broadly left the industry to "self regulate" how they do sales.
So at this time, all Tesla (or any solar company) has to do is to publish your DC array size (your 10.6 kWp); and they have to estimate your expected annual kWh generation. This is because the array size in DC wattage is industry standard. People by panels that are 345 watt. Or solar roofs that are 10.6 kW). And Tesla has informed you what total kWh of generation you should expect from the system over a 12 month period. This estimate is based on the physical characteristics of all the hardware that you purchased, your geographic location, and any known obstructions (like your own house).
Tesla could technically let you know that the Delta M4 inverter was a bit tight for you; and they should have informed you about what extra kW (AC) you'd get with a pair of M5 inverters (or even 1 M4 and 1 M5). And of course they could have given you the choice to pay a bit extra to get the bigger inverter. That's where I think Tesla kind of messed up. They simply sold you a system and picked the cheapest equipment they could that would still mostly work for you.
IMO, this is why I gave the example in another thread about how AC SEER is a crock of BS. 99.9% of buyers are being misled by SEER claims with their HVAC. I'm fairly confident when someone sold you that 5 ton outdoor condensing unit model as a "12 SEER" what they actually said was "up to 12 SEER". Every HVAC professional knows the "up to SEER" is only obtained by the 2 ton units *edit and with oversized evaporator coil*. Once you go to 5 ton, you're looking at much worse SEER simply because of physics. But, the homeowner doesn't know this. They just hear that the particular condensing unit model "could be XX SEER" and sign on the dotted line. This allows HVAC companies to also skimp on evaporator coils, interior air handlers, and all sorts of BS to sell inefficient gear at higher margins.
So your "up to C. Just about zero normal homeowners (@wwhitney is likely the only exception because his is like superhuman) across the USA know how to search the AHRI certificate for the real SEER of the particular equipment they bought. You are welcome to try here:
Tesla didn't provide the specs of which inverter they were installing--they provided a spec sheet with 6 Delta inverters on it. To be honest I didn't check which one was installed until you asked. I had to get a stepstool and take a photo to read the model number. At Tesla’s final inspection in late February the output also read 8.4kW. I asked what I could expect in late spring and the inspector said he thought at last 10kW. Then when I spoke and emailed Tesla last week I asked what I could expect at peak neither would provide an answer, both just kept referencing the ratio between consumption and production. They could have set the record straight right there. In fact they told me to wait until the end of June and then contact Tesla.
By the way, I realize the issue with SEER, my neighbor is an HVAC mechanic, he harps on it all the time. In fact we were just talking about SEER today discussing what I learned from you (thanks by the way). It was a point of reference for people like me, your knowledge just makes my expectation that much worse. But I get and accept your point.
Man, I don't understand how my 6.9 kWp (AC) system is going to generate my SEIA * edit "purchase disclosure", not "contract" * 11,547 kWh lol. I only get Southeast exposure too.
I guess if you look at every document you've received from Tesla... I would be surprised if you don't see Delta M4-TL-US on there. The standard purchase disclosures and contracts should have a basic bill of materials (like the major stuff) like the inverter(s). If you find something that even suggests you were buying a Delta M5-TL-US... it's worth bringing up with Tesla. Just don't get your hopes up.
Regarding your HVAC neighbor - tell him some random guy on the Internet says he can't believe how HVAC installers job people with tiny-ass evaporator coils paired to premium air handlers and condensers. It's a load of baloney to expect a homeowner to understand evaporator coil part numbers on a BOM when they buy "complete systems" from an HVAC contractor. I'm sure he'll laugh and say people on the Internet are weird.
But yeah that's basically what Tesla did to you. Put the smallest inverter (analogous to an AC evaporator) they could and still get you good solar production because it wasn't worth it to pay for the bigger part that gets you more bang.
And they do this because most customers want the CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE. They talk about this all the time here. Well, I paid a LOT more, but as an example, I have 2 11.4kw kick ass SE inverters. No clipping ever now for me.
And they do this because most customers want the CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE. They talk about this all the time here. Well, I paid a LOT more, but as an example, I have 2 11.4kw kick ass SE inverters. No clipping ever now for me.
I suppose that sentiment is more pervasive on the traditional Tesla Solar product. But if someone is paying for a premium HVAC system or a Premium Tesla Solar Roof; it seems logical they don't want the contractor making the cheapest possible price decision. I think this goes to show why it's so important to find a good local shop where possible.
A big boy corporate knows how to squeeze margin from a stone so they do whatever it takes to give an illusion of premium for the lowest price possible.
A bad local shop just doesn't know wtf they're doing.
A good local shop is amazeballs and worth the extra $ IMO.
Found my inverter's model number, it was buried in my NJ Level 2 & 3 Interconnection application which Tesla provide to Exelon and Exelon provided to me.
Last edited:
And they do this because most customers want the CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE. They talk about this all the time here. Well, I paid a LOT more, but as an example, I have 2 11.4kw kick ass SE inverters. No clipping ever now for me.
Wasn't one of those SE 11400's not working?
Can't be clipping if it's not inverting...
Given the lack of specifics about this install, I think this is jumping to a conclusion that may or may not be accurate. Depending on the layout, the inverters may be perfectly appropriate and/or the larger inverter may really not have provided the appropriate bang for the buck.
I also don't know if Tesla even stocks the M5 - all the Delta installs I've seen are for the M4 or M8, and I haven't seen any mention of the M5 in this forum related to an install. So, the options really may have been an M4 or an M8, as far as Tesla is concerned.
But, again, the bottom line is the closest thing you have to a promise from Tesla is the annual production. If your system is hitting that, I don't see anything wrong with what Tesla installed to get you to it. It would be great if they gave you a menu of options, but that is not their business model.
Interesting. With our 12.75 kW roof, we have an 8kW and a 4kW Delta inverter. I thought that was short, but someone on the forum pointed out that is the correct sizing for 12.75.
Yep, the original broke after a year. 15K panels would clip it once in a while, and max out at 11.4k. With the panels split into 11.4 inverters, no more clipping.Wasn't one of those SE 11400's not working?
Can't be clipping if it's not inverting...
And if I can get more panels approved, the infrastructure is already set.
Well ok... so if M5's are very rare I guess Tesla has to pick between M4 and M8 ... and it doesn't make sense to size up to M8 due to the extra costs. Although, I still think Tesla should let the homeowner know they're clipping down and would expect a daily production curve to look more like a hill with a plateau instead of that fancy bell curve you see in a lot of adverts.
Regardless of Tesla's inverter options, the HVAC evaporator trick is straight bogus. If someone buys a 3 ton AC condensing unit and a 3 ton air handler... it probably makes sense to put in a 3 ton evaporator since a homeowner isn't an HVAC professional to be smart enough to tell the difference. But many installers will save a few bucks with a 2.5 ton evaporator and not explain that to the buyer. And don't tell me they cannot source a 3 ton or 3.5 ton evaporator...
charlesj
Active Member
Except that cloud edge generation is a special circumstance that is not predictable.
I know this thread is in regard to Tesla’s recent price escalation; however I wanted to provide in more detail an update of my situation (I’ve mentioned some of this in an earlier post). But first a bit of a dig, one I feel is indicative of the central issue.
After three weeks of being told someone from Tesla would visit my home there was a knock at the door. A Tesla installer was sent to see what my homes issues are (or I don't know maybe mine). He did not know precisely why he was sent—only that his boss was told by the central scrutinizer to find out what was going on. If so that’s one big disconnect—and in my case if that’s all the problem is then it just demonstrates what promptly needs to be corrected.
Sadly he is not the decision maker and can only make a recommendation. The ‘decision’ will be made by some “entity” based on the nature of the issues, so there is still some uncertainty. How much? I just hope there is some movement and I’m not just passing Go again. By the way, why entity? Because as things would have it appears decision-making at Tesla is a thing with distinct and independent existence. From his perspective the installer agreed that’s a big problem. According to the installer installations has raised aspects of this same issue before. There are lessons being learned it’s not clear how deep that learning is. My fear is those lessons, if being learned, are not reaching the right people, the decision-makers (if they are that’s another muddled mess). This brings me an issues I feel is central to the recent price escalation. As comparably nimble as Tesla is they still suffer from an occasional sudden jolt of tetanic contraction.
The installer has an opinion similar to many in this forum. Commodity prices are a big factor, which complexity is inextricably tied to. Because of commodity prices it seems whatever learning curve or complexity Tesla was willing to incur that margin is now gone. House condition and state are big factors to both delays and costs. One issue he raised, which I have experienced, is being told by a homeowner or contractor that a new or remodeled home is ready for roof installation and it is not, but it gets scheduled. The installer also questioned why a PM from Tesla doesn’t visit the site to check on this. There’s a big disconnect between sales, scheduling, and institutions. It’s not something alien to installation but they are spread thin, which by eating my own words is probably why it took three weeks for someone to show up. Likewise, even if the job is ready before work begins have a face to face with the client, to oversee material delivery, and the work of any subcontractors.
In regard to subcontracting tear off and reseal, it seems a lot of time and effort was lost, and mistakes made, by not enough communication, planning, and coordination (I don’t know what effect this had on full outside contracts, but I assume less—maybe someone can speak out). Although in my experience with Tesla there is a fidelity issue with comes to communication that is both typical an atypical. There seems to be more ways to interface with the company—but it seems to create a hell of a lot of misunderstanding, or misinformation, between everybody. Not just customer and client, but between Tesla entities and subcontractors, (it seems Tesla pushes information theory (Shannon–Hartley) to the extreme (I always love double, no triple parentheticals don’t you (but I digress )).
Finally, there were lot of jobs where the condition was sub-par and in some cases the installation crew would show up after tear-off and reseal and experience problems. Therefore Tesla instructed the subcontractor to replace any damage or distorted sheathing before reseal. The subcontractor wanting the work, and wanting to be paid, made the decision on the spot. Like all decisions made on the spot, by hopefully experienced people, they probably were sound decisions, still in others possibly overkill. What started as an oversight became a necessary exercise in an abundance of caution. Home owners were also complaining about some cosmetic issue related to how the roof rested on the deck. Then inflation in the cost of sheathing and every other building material made what became a standard practice financially intolerable. I’m not defending anyone here, you know, "I'm just sayin".
So does Tesla deserve one’s sympathy? I’ll let others arrive at their own decision. But as I said before; I paid for my own education, and most of the mistakes I made (in all honesty I have taken a mulligan or two). However, I’m not willing to pay for Tesla’s (one exception being the environment—and this is where I’m torn—but I don’t want to be taken advantage of for that). Nevertheless, in the case of the recent cost escalation I’d probably want some compromise, something more than just a Powerwall+++, maybe something off the back nine.
After three weeks of being told someone from Tesla would visit my home there was a knock at the door. A Tesla installer was sent to see what my homes issues are (or I don't know maybe mine). He did not know precisely why he was sent—only that his boss was told by the central scrutinizer to find out what was going on. If so that’s one big disconnect—and in my case if that’s all the problem is then it just demonstrates what promptly needs to be corrected.
Sadly he is not the decision maker and can only make a recommendation. The ‘decision’ will be made by some “entity” based on the nature of the issues, so there is still some uncertainty. How much? I just hope there is some movement and I’m not just passing Go again. By the way, why entity? Because as things would have it appears decision-making at Tesla is a thing with distinct and independent existence. From his perspective the installer agreed that’s a big problem. According to the installer installations has raised aspects of this same issue before. There are lessons being learned it’s not clear how deep that learning is. My fear is those lessons, if being learned, are not reaching the right people, the decision-makers (if they are that’s another muddled mess). This brings me an issues I feel is central to the recent price escalation. As comparably nimble as Tesla is they still suffer from an occasional sudden jolt of tetanic contraction.
The installer has an opinion similar to many in this forum. Commodity prices are a big factor, which complexity is inextricably tied to. Because of commodity prices it seems whatever learning curve or complexity Tesla was willing to incur that margin is now gone. House condition and state are big factors to both delays and costs. One issue he raised, which I have experienced, is being told by a homeowner or contractor that a new or remodeled home is ready for roof installation and it is not, but it gets scheduled. The installer also questioned why a PM from Tesla doesn’t visit the site to check on this. There’s a big disconnect between sales, scheduling, and institutions. It’s not something alien to installation but they are spread thin, which by eating my own words is probably why it took three weeks for someone to show up. Likewise, even if the job is ready before work begins have a face to face with the client, to oversee material delivery, and the work of any subcontractors.
In regard to subcontracting tear off and reseal, it seems a lot of time and effort was lost, and mistakes made, by not enough communication, planning, and coordination (I don’t know what effect this had on full outside contracts, but I assume less—maybe someone can speak out). Although in my experience with Tesla there is a fidelity issue with comes to communication that is both typical an atypical. There seems to be more ways to interface with the company—but it seems to create a hell of a lot of misunderstanding, or misinformation, between everybody. Not just customer and client, but between Tesla entities and subcontractors, (it seems Tesla pushes information theory (Shannon–Hartley) to the extreme (I always love double, no triple parentheticals don’t you (but I digress
)).Finally, there were lot of jobs where the condition was sub-par and in some cases the installation crew would show up after tear-off and reseal and experience problems. Therefore Tesla instructed the subcontractor to replace any damage or distorted sheathing before reseal. The subcontractor wanting the work, and wanting to be paid, made the decision on the spot. Like all decisions made on the spot, by hopefully experienced people, they probably were sound decisions, still in others possibly overkill. What started as an oversight became a necessary exercise in an abundance of caution. Home owners were also complaining about some cosmetic issue related to how the roof rested on the deck. Then inflation in the cost of sheathing and every other building material made what became a standard practice financially intolerable. I’m not defending anyone here, you know, "I'm just sayin".
So does Tesla deserve one’s sympathy? I’ll let others arrive at their own decision. But as I said before; I paid for my own education, and most of the mistakes I made (in all honesty I have taken a mulligan or two). However, I’m not willing to pay for Tesla’s (one exception being the environment—and this is where I’m torn—but I don’t want to be taken advantage of for that). Nevertheless, in the case of the recent cost escalation I’d probably want some compromise, something more than just a Powerwall+++, maybe something off the back nine.
Last edited:
And there is the main rub. And I have seen this with the 4 years of remodeling I have done on my home. Everyone wants the cheapest price. But everyone then wants to be hand held with phone calls, visits, etc!!! Cannot have it both ways. I know talking to my battery/solar installer, the amount of time they have spent with me on the phone is WAY more than the average person gets, let alone from most companies. So is this therefore costing me more working with them, you bet. Is it worth it to me to make sure they have considered all the things I have thought about, YOU BET. At the end it has been a win win for both of us, since things get down the first time, correctly, for what I wanted to pay for.I know this thread is in regard to Tesla’s recent price escalation; however I wanted to provide in more detail an update of my situation (I’ve mentioned some of this in an earlier post). But first a bit of a dig, one I feel is indicative of the central issue.
After three weeks of being told someone from Tesla would visit my home there was a knock at the door. A Tesla installer was sent to see what my homes issues are (or I don't know maybe mine). He did not know precisely why he was sent—only that his boss was told by the central scrutinizer to find out what was going on. If so that’s one big disconnect—and in my case if that’s all the problem is then it just demonstrates what promptly needs to be corrected.
Sadly he is not the decision maker and can only make a recommendation. The ‘decision’ will be made by some “entity” based on the nature of the issues, so there is still some uncertainty. How much? I just hope there is some movement and I’m not just passing Go again. By the way, why entity? Because as things would have it appears decision-making at Tesla is a thing with distinct and independent existence. From his perspective the installer agreed that’s a big problem. According to the installer installations has raised aspects of this same issue before. There are lessons being learned it’s not clear how deep that learning is. My fear is those lessons, if being learned, are not reaching the right people, the decision-makers (if they are that’s another muddled mess). This brings me an issues I feel is central to the recent price escalation. As comparably nimble as Tesla is they still suffer from an occasional sudden jolt of tetanic contraction.
The installer has an opinion similar to many in this forum. Commodity prices are a big factor, which complexity is inextricably tied to. Because of commodity prices it seems whatever learning curve or complexity Tesla was willing to incur that margin is now gone. House condition and state are big factors to both delays and costs. One issue he raised, which I have experienced, is being told by a homeowner or contractor that a new or remodeled home is ready for roof installation and it is not, but it gets scheduled. The installer also questioned why a PM from Tesla doesn’t visit the site to check on this. There’s a big disconnect between sales, scheduling, and institutions. It’s not something alien to installation but they are spread thin, which by eating my own words is probably why it took three weeks for someone to show up. Likewise, even if the job is ready before work begins have a face to face with the client, to oversee material delivery, and the work of any subcontractors.
In regard to subcontracting tear off and reseal, it seems a lot of time and effort was lost, and mistakes made, by not enough communication, planning, and coordination (I don’t know what effect this had on full outside contracts, but I assume less—maybe someone can speak out). Although in my experience with Tesla there is a fidelity issue with comes to communication that is both typical an atypical. There seems to be more ways to interface with the company—but it seems to create a hell of a lot of misunderstanding, or misinformation, between everybody. Not just customer and client, but between Tesla entities and subcontractors, (it seems Tesla pushes information theory (Shannon–Hartley) to the extreme (I always love double, no triple parentheticals don’t you (but I digress
Finally, there were lot of jobs where the condition was sub-par and in some cases the installation crew would show up after tear-off and reseal and experience problems. Therefore Tesla instructed the subcontractor to replace any damage or distorted sheathing before reseal. The subcontractor wanting the work, and wanting to be paid, made the decision on the spot. Like all decisions made on the spot, by hopefully experienced people, they probably were sound decisions, still in others possibly overkill. What started as an oversight became a necessary exercise in an abundance of caution. Home owners were also complaining about some cosmetic issue related to how the roof rested on the deck. Then inflation in the cost of sheathing and every other building material made what became a standard practice financially intolerable. I’m not defending anyone here, you know, "I'm just sayin".
So does Tesla deserve one’s sympathy? I’ll let others arrive at their own decision. But as I said before; I paid for my own education, and most of the mistakes I made (in all honesty I have taken a mulligan or two). However, I’m not willing to pay for Tesla’s (one exception being the environment—and this is where I’m torn—but I don’t want to be taken advantage of for that). Nevertheless, in the case of the recent cost escalation I’d probably want some compromise, something more than just a Powerwall+++, maybe something off the back nine.
I remember reading somewhere that clipping at the peak is less important than the total output for the day. Oversizing inverters to collect every bit of the peak output results in less efficiency during the rest of the day which actually results in lower daily output. If I'm correct could that apply here?
Similar threads
