Major Phantom Braking Issues

[LucLamma]

Hey guys. Thanks for all of your feedback and excellent info. It's very interesting to note that this problem has been ongoing and some people experience it while others do not and the hardware level of the vehicle (sensors vs vision) does not appear to make much of a difference with recent updates.

I was not aware that there was a separate section for discussing phantom braking* (thanks for the correction) and not in the vehicle section itself. I did see topics related to it because I searched around before posting but the threads I did find were older and I thought with all of the updates the car receives they may not be applicable to my situation.

I really really wanted to like my Tesla and I got it exclusively for these long 7-8 hour trips through the desert where we are driving in almost a straight line for 100+ mile stretches. Unfortunately, at this time it's not really usable for that (with TACC or any type of automation). I'll do a few more of these trips over the coming months and report in and also keep an eye on the other subthreads.

 

[Altes]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to share an experience that I've had today so that others looking at Teslas to use for long distance driving can make an informed decision.

My wife and I drove our 2023 MYLR from Tucson to Las Vegas. It's a ~7 hour drive (8.5 with charging stops, ~400 miles) mostly through an open desert highway. Traffic is minimal and driving an ICE car is easy on cruise control. Most of the drive is going straight on a highway. We've done it dozens of times since we travel between the two spots often and is a reason we got a Tesla.

The car is 6 days old and running the latest software. During our trip we experienced 19 phantom breaking incidents where the car decided to break at highway speeds for no reason. In all cases there were no cars or obstructions in the way and this occurred at various stretches of the trip. The breaking was very aggressive.

After the first few phantom breaking events we started disabling various "autopilot" features such as emergency breaking, etc. In the end, nothing made a difference and the phantom breaking was occurring even on regular "cruise control" (one pull down) with all other features disabled.

To summarize, the experience was unpleasant and dangerous. If at any time during the phantom breaking event there was a car following us closely there would have been an accident. I do not feel safe operating this vehicle with any type of "autopilot" feature because it's unsafe and behaves erratically.

I know people will say that this is all "beta" and "experimental" and I should always be ready to take over, and of course that part is correct. But when the car breaks suddenly at highway speeds for no reason "taking over" is difficult, especially if this behavior creates an accident. Furthermore, the expectation is that it's 2022 and even the simplest of vehicles offer a cruise control that doesn't slam its breaks on the highway.

I'd be curious to know if others have the same issue. I feel like this is a SERIOUS safety problem and now I am very weary of my Tesla.

Luca

Im so sorry your Phantom is broken

 

[vonklarp]

Please report this event to: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration NHTSA. There is a link at the top right of their web page.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have the latest version that my vehicle supports, so yes, I do have the latest version.

You are taking a hostile position on a topic that's of importance to current and future Tesla vehicle owners.

If I knew this was such a serious and dangerous issue I would not have purchased this vehicle for use on our long trip. One way of preventing others from making the same mistake and possibly saving them from an accident is to make them aware of the problem and not CONCEAL it.

I think he was just pointing out it is not the "latest version" for a Model Y in the US. The latest version is 2022.44.2.

2022.44.2 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates

Tesla software update 2022.44.2 includes Sentry Mode, Camera-Based Detection, New Language Support, Seat Belt System Enhancement, Energy App, Battery Temperature, Service Mode Enhancement, Manual Climate, Auto Seats, SOS Button.

www.notateslaapp.com

It's better to point out the version than to say "latest version" because your car may not necessarily be staged for the latest update yet.

As for the versions, I don't think most recent ones change AP, much. People have reported improvements in the past, but that's usually comparing when Vision just came out versus the recent.

It's interesting that some people report no phantom braking at all and some seem to have a lot of it. When it happened to you, did the set speed drop or was it the same? If the set speed dropped, it may be because your car passed by a road it considered local.

If set speed remained the same, things to check for is the camera housing being clean. You can recalibrate the cameras also if necessary.

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Autopilot and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

 

[jjrandorin]

I think he was just pointing out it is not the "latest version" for a Model Y in the US. The latest version is 2022.44.2.

2022.44.2 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates

Tesla software update 2022.44.2 includes Sentry Mode, Camera-Based Detection, New Language Support, Seat Belt System Enhancement, Energy App, Battery Temperature, Service Mode Enhancement, Manual Climate, Auto Seats, SOS Button.

www.notateslaapp.com

It's better to point out the version than to say "latest version" because your car may not necessarily be staged for the latest update yet.

As for the versions, I don't think most recent ones change AP, much. People have reported improvements in the past, but that's usually comparing when Vision just came out versus the recent.

It's interesting that some people report no phantom braking at all and some seem to have a lot of it. When it happened to you, did the set speed drop or was it the same? If the set speed dropped, it may be because your car passed by a road it considered local.

If set speed remained the same, things to check for is the camera housing being clean. You can recalibrate the cameras also if necessary.

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Autopilot and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

It seems to me, without a ton of research into this but some spot checking, that whether and how much someone experiences phantom braking depends on which specific roads they are riding on / path they are going. It also seems to me that, similar to the auto wipers, some people get software updates and say "its better" and some get the same update and say "its worse".

I dont experience it much, but I also dont use autopilot a ton, and tend to be on well marked roads. I certainly am not saying others dont experience it, quite the opposite actually. The threads I linked (from the autopilot / FSD subforum) probably have a hundred pages of threads between them, likely more.

 

[yobigd20]

That is TACC, traffic aware cruise control. It's one feature of autopilot pilot. The other feature is autosteer. I don't use TACC anymore. The car hit the brakes a couple of times in my 2022 MSLR quickly slowing the car from 60mph to 40mph. Once for a car parked safely on the shoulder and once for a bicyclist safely riding off the road. I trained myself to anticipate these scenarios and disengage TACC. But it was too mentally draining. It's safer and more enjoyable without TACC. I do better than TAAC.

As someone with a MY AWD on order. and coming from a 2013 P85 that only had basic cruise control, can you tell me what to expect here? Does MY have basic cruise control? What is TACC and autosteer? I did not add any additional sutopilot or FSD (i'm a software engineer and in no way would I put my life in the hands of someone else's programming skills lol). Can TACC and sutosteer be turned on/off on demand?

 

[zoomer0056]

As someone with a MY AWD on order. and coming from a 2013 P85 that only had basic cruise control, can you tell me what to expect here? Does MY have basic cruise control? What is TACC and autosteer? I did not add any additional sutopilot or FSD (i'm a software engineer and in no way would I put my life in the hands of someone else's programming skills lol). Can TACC and sutosteer be turned on/off on demand?

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

 

[yobigd20]

Model Y Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

Thanks but not helpful. I was looking for real world user feedback, not a link to the manual.

 

[zoomer0056]

Thanks but not helpful. I was looking for real world user feedback, not a link to the manual.

There is already lots of that in this forum. Search for TACC or Autosteer and you'll see more than you want.

 

[MylerB]

Hey guys. Thanks for all of your feedback and excellent info. It's very interesting to note that this problem has been ongoing and some people experience it while others do not and the hardware level of the vehicle (sensors vs vision) does not appear to make much of a difference with recent updates.

I was not aware that there was a separate section for discussing phantom braking* (thanks for the correction) and not in the vehicle section itself. I did see topics related to it because I searched around before posting but the threads I did find were older and I thought with all of the updates the car receives they may not be applicable to my situation.

I really really wanted to like my Tesla and I got it exclusively for these long 7-8 hour trips through the desert where we are driving in almost a straight line for 100+ mile stretches. Unfortunately, at this time it's not really usable for that (with TACC or any type of automation). I'll do a few more of these trips over the coming months and report in and also keep an eye on the other subthreads.

Recalibrate the cameras and try on newest software once you have it (you don’t yet).

If you do even a little bit of research you’ll find some consistent triggers of PB events. Check my post history for thorough info. As others have said, some cars are more affected than others, but there are consistent triggers across vehicle types and software patches. I definitely understand your frustration though.

 

[GoldenBoy]

On 2022.44.2 mine is down to 2 scenarios now where is slows down, but behaves everywhere else.

1. Approaching bridges with narrowing openings.
The bridge caution makes sense for two way traffic bridgse, however it also does it on single direction bridges which is undesired. i.e. divided highways.
2. Approaching dips in the road located on the crest of a hill. I assume the car just can't see over what it perceives as a cliff because the camera is not high enough.
I find both are annoying, and having a regular cruise control option separate from TACC or a don't apply the brakes option when on a highway would be fine by me.

 

[NigelM]

There's no identifiable factor that I can see. Last week (in my 2021 Y) on a clear, flat interstate in good weather at midday I experienced phantom braking 5 times in less than 30 miles. Coming back the opposite way on the same road -> zero times.

It happens often enough that my wife refuses to use Autopilot/TACC at all anymore.

 

[jjrandorin]

As someone with a MY AWD on order. and coming from a 2013 P85 that only had basic cruise control, can you tell me what to expect here? Does MY have basic cruise control? What is TACC and autosteer? I did not add any additional sutopilot or FSD (i'm a software engineer and in no way would I put my life in the hands of someone else's programming skills lol). Can TACC and sutosteer be turned on/off on demand?

No, no modern tesla has "basic cruise control", if by basic cruise control you mean the kind that will happily barrel into the bumper of another vehicle. They all come with TACC or "traffic aware cruise control".

The link to the manual is appropriate for the answer to "what is traffic aware cruise control and autosteer", but Its cruise control that slows down or speeds up with traffic, and auto steer adds the ability for the car to steer within its lane lines.

The car comes standard with autopilot so you get it whether you added anything or not on a brand new tesla.

It only turns on at your command so you can ignore the features completely, however there is no "dumb" cruise control, so while you can ignore TACC or TACC + autosteer and just drive normally, there is no option to use cruise control that ignores traffic speeds.

 

[Zoot219]

Our 2021 MYLR has gone 35k miles and we have had a few phantom braking experiences on rural roads with cars parked on the shoulders; in low angle sunlight, and even on very twisting roads. I now anticipate some of the situations and keep my foot on the accelerator, as others have also done. I remind myself that our Tesla is trying to keep us safe, even if these phantom events are disconcerting at times. Better safe than sorry.

 

[NigelM]

Our 2021 MYLR has gone 35k miles and we have had a few phantom braking experiences on rural roads with cars parked on the shoulders; in low angle sunlight, and even on very twisting roads. I now anticipate some of the situations and keep my foot on the accelerator, as others have also done. I remind myself that our Tesla is trying to keep us safe, even if these phantom events are disconcerting at times. Better safe than sorry.

Wait till you're doing 70mph (or more) on the interstate and the car suddenly decides to do 50mph or 40mph. That doesn't feel safe.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Wait till you're doing 70mph (or more) on the interstate and the car suddenly decides to do 50mph or 40mph. That doesn't feel safe.

No one answered when I asked, but when it does that, does the set speed drop? If the set speed drops, that probably is thinking it is on a local road. If not, it's something else.

 

[Dennisis]

No one answered when I asked, but when it does that, does the set speed drop? If the set speed drops, that probably is thinking it is on a local road. If not, it's something else.

It didn’t drop for me, open highway no shadows, overpasses, vehicles, etc… many incidents

 

[Fraslin]

On 2022.44.2 mine is down to 2 scenarios now where is slows down, but behaves everywhere else.

1. Approaching bridges with narrowing openings.
The bridge caution makes sense for two way traffic bridgse, however it also does it on single direction bridges which is undesired. i.e. divided highways.
2. Approaching dips in the road located on the crest of a hill. I assume the car just can't see over what it perceives as a cliff because the camera is not high enough.

I have those two and would also add a third:
3. Emergency or construction vehicles on the shoulder with flashing lights. This seems to a huge source of confusion for the software. And while yes it should be careful, braking forcefully is not the answer

 

[LucLamma]

No one answered when I asked, but when it does that, does the set speed drop? If the set speed drops, that probably is thinking it is on a local road. If not, it's something else.

For me, when the phantom braking occurred, the speed dropped each time from about 75 MPH to ~50mph in a matter of about 2 seconds. The speed continued to be reduced until I applied acceleration. So in my case, I think the car would have come to a complete stop (on the highway) if accelerator was not applied. I tested this about 3 times because there were no cars behind us and each time the vehicle's speed continued to be reduced after the initial phantom braking event. When it went down to 30 I started accelerating because I did not feel comfortable driving on a highway at lower speeds.

After I realized that the speed will be reduced indefinitely after the automatic braking I'd apply slight acceleration to re-activate cruise control and accelerate back to the speed limit.

... and to zoot... as the other member said... its not a safety feature. It's a feature that REDUCES safety. Anytime the car slams the brakes going 75 on the highway for no reason is a safety issue. It's a bug that needs to be fixed. It's not a feature (as Microsoft would call it).

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have those two and would also add a third:
3. Emergency or construction vehicles on the shoulder with flashing lights. This seems to a huge source of confusion for the software. And while yes it should be careful, braking forcefully is not the answer

This was added after a few incidents of AP crashing into stopped emergency vehicles, and NHTSA launched an investigation. I'm not sure if car detects vehicles in the rear, but if cars behind are far away, there is nothing inherently unsafe about braking forcefully, it is just jarring.