NEW Model 3 Highland review!

[sleepydoc]

But the thing is the type of small shifters he is talking about, they aren't big enough of a target to use without looking at them. He's not talking about the big shifters of the old days.

And that reminds me, even the old shifters, I looked it up before and people actually typically look down at them to change between drive and reverse:

Looks like they are removing stalks from the 3/Y

It doesn’t look like a horn icon to the upper left of the right scroll wheel. Maybe a phone button? Maybe they finally put the horn back in the center airbag? The horn button has been relocated to the brake pedal. One quick tap for horn. Steady pressure to brake. Simple, intuitive, futuristic...

teslamotorsclub.com

There are probably very few people that do it completely by feel alone.

The only cars I’ve used with such a shift knob were a caravan and a hyundai (both rentals.) in both of them the knob was at least 1.5-2” in diameter so it was easy to grab without looking. THey also had detents that one could feel when turning them so it was easy to shift by feel.

Most common gear shift designs follow a common pattern - P - R - N - D. You shift down from park to reverse to back out then 2 more clicks to put it into drive. The shifters also automatically stop in drive so it’s incredibly easy to do even blindfolded. The Tesla shift stalk is the same way - detents make it easy to put into drive by feel.

Every single one of those points should end with "for me". (Except the gloves problem. That's a real issue)
They are your opinion based on your experience, which is perfectly fine, as that is what this post was for.
But don't write your opinion in the form of fact. It's only your reality based on your experience.
Saying that stalks have been an industry standard for 100 yrs tells me exactly where you're coming from.
The root cause of your "review" comes from being stubborn about change.

It sounds like you just want an ICE car that happens run on a battery.
Tesla has never been that (exception to original 'Lotus' Roadster). The whole reason Tesla has been successful is because it pushes the idea of what a car can do/be to it's limit. And all that's done is drag the rest of the auto industry into the EV era. It wasn't going to happen otherwise. And sure, when you take big swings, you're going to miss sometimes. But it's more important to take those swings!
I do wish they waited until they had steer-by-wire to remove stalks. It would have helped since you wouldn't have to remove your hand from the wheel as much, but oh well.
I've said it before, going forward, any new drivers that learn how to drive in a new Tesla don't have the old habits of using stalks or gear shifters. They'll learn without them, and won't have the biases that older drivers do.
Reaction time won't be worse, because they aren't unlearning the old way.

It comes down to how open are you to learn a new (better or not) way of driving.
If you're unwilling to adapt, don't buy it.

I like how people who can’t form a cogent counterargument resort to ‘you’re a luddite who can’t adapt to change.’ If I didn’t want to change I wouldn’t have bought a tesla. Nor would I be using FSD. Implicit in your post is the argument that all change is for the better. Clearly that is not true. My satement about 100 years of automotive design has nothign to do with change, it’s an empiric observation that turn signal stalks work well and are clearly preferred. Do you really think no one has considered getting rid of them before Elon? The technology to do so has existed for at least the last 50 years.

My analysis was as objective as I could make it. (Please explain how finding some buttons on the steering wheel when your hands are not at the 8 and 4 o’clock positions is easier or quicker. I tried multiple times. Could I do it? Yes. Was it easier? Absolutely not. If My left hand was off the wheel it was far more difficult and slower. This is not opinion, it is fact and I challenge you to disprove it.

Elon has taken many big swings. He’s hit some bombers and he has whiffed many times as well. This is an example of him swinging for the upper deck and hitting himself in the ass with his bat.

 

[whitex]

But don't write your opinion in the form of fact. It's only your reality based on your experience.

So "Do as I say but not as I do" then?

Every single one of those points should end with "for me". (Except the gloves problem. That's a real issue)

Why aren't you following your own advice? It's a real issue "for you", as not everyone wears gloves to drive. It depends on climate you live in, times you drive, and of course preferences, right? Perhaps Tesla solution works well for people in hot climates, or people who never drive without preheating the crap out of their car, or just people who would rather take a taxi than drive with gloves on.

I've said it before, going forward, any new drivers that learn how to drive in a new Tesla don't have the old habits of using stalks or gear shifters. They'll learn without them, and won't have the biases that older drivers do.
Reaction time won't be worse, because they aren't unlearning the old way.

Again, your opinion, and in this case easy to argue against it by counter-example - given the steering wheel in a random position (driver not paying enough attention to remember the wheel position exactly) and not being able to look at it (paying attention to the road with many cars and poor visibility), I bet stalkless round steering wheel will have a longer reaction time than stalked. Sure, in a situation where the car is going straight and driver has their hand at 9 o-clock, perhaps even hovering their thumb over the turn signal touch, year, they can have even better reaction time, but definitely not in all cases.

It comes down to how open are you to learn a new (better or not) way of driving.
If you're unwilling to adapt, don't buy it.

Amen to that. Vote with your wallet - it is what got the rounded yoke on the menu in the first place.

 

[whitex]

For these little things like stalks, front display, HUD or wheel vs yoke, that’s where aftermarket comes in. I care more about the core of the car than the fluff which can be changed as wanted.

You've obviously never experienced a proper, integrated AR HUD. No aftermarket solution compares - requires too much integration. To a lesser extent, see what it takes to retrofit a bird's eye 360 degree view onto a Tesla. Doable, sure, but about as much hassle as retrofitting AP3 onto a 2013 Model S.

 

[whitex]

Other than the large shifters in older cars, I highly doubt people aren't taking a glance at the console mounted button/knob/lever to use it. I don't have direct experience with those, but for the AC knobs/buttons of my old car, I take a glance at them to use them. Sure, if you force people to never look off the road and feel around to find it, eventually they may find it, but I doubt anyone actually uses it that way.

On the two EV's we have at home, I never look at the gear knobs. On the Porsche, the gear shifter is on the dash behind the steering wheel. I know I don't look at it because when I switch to other cars, I sometimes catch myself touching the dash before realizing it's a different car. Similar thing on the Audi, it has a gear knob between the seats, very intuitive to grab, move forward with thumb for drive, back for reverse, press for park. I guess if I wanted to go into Neutral I would look, because thinking about I don't remember how that's even done, but that's probably because I think I only ever shifted it to N once, ever.

 

[enemji]

Dials, buttons, levers, steering column paddles - all interface elements you can engage without taking your eyes off the road.



Personally, I prefer physical shift levers (prefer manual tranny, actually), but have driven cars with buttons and dials for gear shifting as well.



I don't know, and neither do you - Tesla is too cheap to put a real HUD into its vehicles.
BTW, that would have been really nice, and it would be an extra feature3 for which I would pay happily $$$$.

Unfortunately, the touch-screen is not a heads-up-display, nor does it provide any tactile feedback. And, it crashes and goes black on you every other week (or sometimes you have to reboot it manually). That leaves one with clumsy physical back-up buttons at the least ergonomic and least intuitive location in the car - the roof.

Lets admit it - sometimes Tesla does flat out dumb stuff.
This is one of those situations.
No need to invents excuses for this.

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When I first started driving, I used to look under the steering wheel to make sure my feet were hitting the right pedals. Did not want to step on the gas instead of the brakes, or the brakes instead of the clutch.

/end sarcasm

 

[sleepydoc]

I watched my 16 year old driving today (still has her permit with about 30 hours total time behind the wheel.) She checked the mirrors then reached down to put the car in reverse, grabbing air because she has been driving out odyssey and was reaching for where the shifter was in that car. For the rest of the drive she never looked to see where the shift stalk was before using it.

So yeah, a novice driver with relatively few hours has already learned where the controls are for 2 separate and operates them without looking.

 

[chinney]

I have always looked down if the shifter is on a console. I never mastered blind shifting (other than with a stick shift on a manual transmission, which is a different thing entirely). It seems to me that as between a shifter on the console and one on the screen right in front of you, the latter is the better option, at least for me. I would have been disappointed if Tesla went with the console shifting model. Whether it is better to have a shifter on the screen vs. shifting via the stalk, however, I am not sure.

I will add more generally that after initially being quite apprehensive before buying the Model 3, I quickly became accustomed to controlling the car functions via the screen and soon after began to prefer it to standard auto controls. I find it annoying to drive other cars now.

 

[Eto Demerzel]

There is no valid argument that no stalks/touchscreen prndl is in any way better than stalks for the end consumer and drivability.
It just isn't.
The fact they need redundant PRNDL buttons on the ceiling just proves how sub-optimal this is.

There are many good reasons for Tesla to remove stalks. Cost savings and assembly time cuts. Without stalks, they have removed one of the single most expensive assemblies left on the interior of the car. Put that money into other upgrades to finishes, and minimize costs of the redesign.

Tesla is balancing this out with a price that is hard to compete with, and people willing to live with it or gaslit into thinking it's "the future".
I can see many people wanting an ev to overlook this in the test drive, and overall weighing the cost and benefits of the 3.

Even now, if I were in that market, I would still seriously consider the 3 because it's a great vehicle. Luckily, I can wait for better options.

And people considering aftermarket, consumer grade aliexpress stalks and switchgear just shows how far gone the logic is.

Step back a moment and look at what you are writing:
You are buying a $40K+ vehicle that needs control levers to use fundamental safety and basic functions.
You are relying on aftermarket components to interface with every time you use the vehicle.
Those parts should be the brand of the vehicle. That's what you buy the brand for. It isn't a hobby kit.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There is no valid argument that no stalks/touchscreen prndl is in any way better than stalks for the end consumer and drivability.
It just isn't.
The fact they need redundant PRNDL buttons on the ceiling just proves how sub-optimal this is.

Actually no. The fact they need redundant physical PRNDL buttons is because that is required to meet federal law (as per a question about an aftermarket "smart shift" to NHTSA):
04-004377drn | NHTSA
The touchscreen shifter implementation Tesla uses does not meet FMVSS 102 for various reasons: it is not permanently displayed when car is outside of park and gears can be still shifted (rather the gearshift interface is automatically hidden), the neutral is not between the forward/reverse (rather the neutral position is a button on the bottom that you have to press and hold to activate). And the biggest and most obvious reason: the touchscreen can be shut off (for example on a screen reboot) and the car can still be in drive or reverse with no way to shift if there was no mechanical backup!

Having the redundant PRNDL by no means indicates the touchscreen interface is sub-optimal compared to those, for example I doubt people would prefer having to reach their hands up to the hazard button area or under the charging pad area (as for Model S/X) to change gears as opposed to using the touchscreen or Auto Shift. That's why most people treat them as if they don't exist.

 

[BigNick]

I never mastered blind shifting (other than with a stick shift on a manual transmission, which is a different thing entirely).

The fact they need redundant PRNDL buttons on the ceiling just proves how sub-optimal this is.

The touchscreen shifter implementation Tesla uses does not meet FMVSS 102 for various reasons

Now imagine a manual transmission with a touchscreen interface for changing gear.

What a cluster of firetrucks that would be, even before electronic shift lockouts like the infamous low-throttle 1->4 shift from cars like the Corvette use!

 

[sleepydoc]

Re: price - I couldn’t find the cost of replacement stalks for Teslas but I did find an OEM Audi/VW assembly with 3 stalks (signal, cruise control and wipers) for $150 and a single Buick signal stalk for $50. These were retail prices for replacement parts meaning the bulk cost to the manufacturers would be significantly less.

Let’s say the two stalks cost Tesla $100. Now subtract from that the cost for the button assembly over the mirror and the additional buttons on the steering wheel. I have no idea how much these cost in bulk - maybe $25 each? It might be less, but the bottom line is Tesla is saving less than $100 per car, likely significantly less. The cost? Decreased drivability. Lost sales from people who won’t buy the cars. (That’s also ignoring the development costs.)

Here’s a thought experiment - two identical cars. One has stalks and costs $40k, the other doesn’t and costs $39,900. Which would you buy?

 

[Eto Demerzel]

Re: price - I couldn’t find the cost of replacement stalks for Teslas but I did find an OEM Audi/VW assembly with 3 stalks (signal, cruise control and wipers) for $150 and a single Buick signal stalk for $50. These were retail prices for replacement parts meaning the bulk cost to the manufacturers would be significantly less.

Let’s say the two stalks cost Tesla $100. Now subtract from that the cost for the button assembly over the mirror and the additional buttons on the steering wheel. I have no idea how much these cost in bulk - maybe $25 each? It might be less, but the bottom line is Tesla is saving less than $100 per car, likely significantly less. The cost? Decreased drivability. Lost sales from people who won’t buy the cars. (That’s also ignoring the development costs.)

Here’s a thought experiment - two identical cars. One has stalks and costs $40k, the other doesn’t and costs $39,900. Which would you buy?

The retail price of a basic vw two stalk assembly is aroung $350
Not including inventory, assembly line steps, added sku's which add much more $ per unit to Tesla.

Even at your theoretical $100/car, you just saved Tesla $52.3M in 2023 on the M3.
Even at $25/car, that's $13.2M.
Not including all the additional costs to keep those sku's

Saving over $26M in two years is a significant cost savings.

 

[mborkow]

You still can't compare 4-5 months of habits to a 10 minute drive.
If they had been learning on a '24 for 4-5 months, then hopped in an older one, their reaction could very well have been the exact same!

Talk about being stubborn…

 

[Midnightsun]

The retail price of a basic vw two stalk assembly is aroung $350
Not including inventory, assembly line steps, added sku's which add much more $ per unit to Tesla.

How much does it cost Tesla to add a dual function switch to the steering wheel and another backup shift method/indicator not to mention the complexity of programming/incorporating the auto shift function into the vehicle. My guess is it maybe a wash at the end of the day.

 

[stopcrazypp]

How much does it cost Tesla to add a dual function switch to the steering wheel and another backup shift method/indicator

Actually both parts likely save on assembly costs because both are part of existing assemblies (hazard button assembly for Model 3, charging pad assembly for Model S/X).

not to mention the complexity of programming/incorporating the auto shift function into the vehicle. My guess is it maybe a wash at the end of the day.

Auto shift may cost money in development, but may save lots of money in the long run. I doubt Tesla spent tens of millions on developing Auto Shift and that is the potential savings just within a few years.

 

[chinney]

Re: price - I couldn’t find the cost of replacement stalks for Teslas but I did find an OEM Audi/VW assembly with 3 stalks (signal, cruise control and wipers) for $150 and a single Buick signal stalk for $50. These were retail prices for replacement parts meaning the bulk cost to the manufacturers would be significantly less.

Let’s say the two stalks cost Tesla $100. Now subtract from that the cost for the button assembly over the mirror and the additional buttons on the steering wheel. I have no idea how much these cost in bulk - maybe $25 each? It might be less, but the bottom line is Tesla is saving less than $100 per car, likely significantly less. The cost? Decreased drivability. Lost sales from people who won’t buy the cars. (That’s also ignoring the development costs.)

Here’s a thought experiment - two identical cars. One has stalks and costs $40k, the other doesn’t and costs $39,900. Which would you buy?

Maybe it is not just the cost saving - maybe there are some in Tesla who actually think it works better. They may or may not be right about that, but it could be that's what they think, rather than just pursuing mindless cost savings. As I have posted above, I certainly myself would prefer shifting using a screen directly in front of me rather than down on a console as on a fair number of other vehicles these days. Whether I prefer the screen to the stalk I can't yet say. As for the steering wheel buttons rather than a signal stalk, I checked that out on a Highland in my local Tesla showroom (albeit without driving it) and it seemed pretty natural to me. The biggest complaint that I have seen is 'what about signalling in roundabouts, when the steering wheel is turned and you don't know where the correct button is'. I am a bit confused by that comment. In a roundabout it is not like you are spinning the wheel right around - not near that, at any point in the roundabout. So the location of the correct button is always going to be pretty obvious, and pretty handy if your, like me, are a '10 o'clock, 2 o'clock' hand position person on the steering wheel - maybe more handy than flicking the stalk on the left.

 

[Whatstreet]

Maybe it is not just the cost saving - maybe there are some in Tesla who actually think it works better.

It seems they are moving towards self driving, so operator controls are being compromised.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Maybe it is not just the cost saving - maybe there are some in Tesla who actually think it works better. They may or may not be right about that, but it could be that's what they think, rather than just pursuing mindless cost savings. As I have posted above, I certainly myself would prefer shifting using a screen directly in front of me rather than down on a console as on a fair number of other vehicles these days. Whether I prefer the screen to the stalk I can't yet say. As for the steering wheel buttons rather than a signal stalk, I checked that out on a Highland in my local Tesla showroom (albeit without driving it) and it seemed pretty natural to me. The biggest complaint that I have seen is 'what about signalling in roundabouts, when the steering wheel is turned and you don't know where the correct button is'. I am a bit confused by that comment. In a roundabout it is not like you are spinning the wheel right around - not near that, at any point in the roundabout. So the location of the correct button is always going to be pretty obvious, and pretty handy if your, like me, are a '10 o'clock, 2 o'clock' hand position person on the steering wheel - maybe more handy than flicking the stalk on the left.

It's optimized for a yoke, steer-by-wire mechanism. In that case you never steer more than 180 degrees, so you can keep both hands in the same position on the wheel, and the relative position of the fingers won't change to the buttons.

Currently without steer by wire, there are cases where the turn signal buttons will be on the right side instead of left side. The way to adjust to that is to use the right hand to hit those buttons instead of the left hand and treat the reference point as moving with the wheel (instead of fixed to column as with stalks). Once you have that mental adjustment, it becomes possible to hit turn signals consistently even while turning at extreme angles.

 

[Midnightsun]

All I can say is I have lived with no stalks for over 2 1/2 years. I would never go back, in fact I find it cumbersome and a step backwards when I drive our Y. No different than a keyless experience in a Tesla, amazing to say the least yet I am sure there are those that will argue a key or push to start is better.

Tesla is a leader in innovation, some people just cannot adjust and for those I say get another brand with dials, buttons, stalks and keys. The tesla experience needs an open mind and one needs to be willing to accept changes as they happen all the time with updates which is also a common issue with some, so much so they refuse to update.

 

[enemji]

I have always looked down if the shifter is on a console. I never mastered blind shifting (other than with a stick shift on a manual transmission, which is a different thing entirely). It seems to me that as between a shifter on the console and one on the screen right in front of you, the latter is the better option, at least for me. I would have been disappointed if Tesla went with the console shifting model. Whether it is better to have a shifter on the screen vs. shifting via the stalk, however, I am not sure.

I will add more generally that after initially being quite apprehensive before buying the Model 3, I quickly became accustomed to controlling the car functions via the screen and soon after began to prefer it to standard auto controls. I find it annoying to drive other cars now.

Teenage are formation years. Teens will have no problems.