New New England Supercharger Locations

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I'll be quite annoyed if the state puts in only tesla quick charge. I understand this is a tesla forum but it doesn't do the EV movement any good to have state-sponsored EV elitism. They really should put in a mix of CHADEMO, SAE CCS, and supercharger. Plus some 70a J1772...

Well, since it'd be Tesla paying for the Superchargers, and the electricity, it'd be more that NH would be allowing Tesla to put Superchargers in. What I'd hope is that they've considered and encourage electrification by ensuring that there'd be enough infrastructure in the area to allow more chargers to be installed.

If it's a rest stop, and they have the infrastructure to allow plenty of DC there's no reason for 70A J1772.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

I'll be quite annoyed if the state puts in only tesla quick charge. I understand this is a tesla forum but it doesn't do the EV movement any good to have state-sponsored EV elitism. They really should put in a mix of CHADEMO, SAE CCS, and supercharger. Plus some 70a J1772...

Tesla pays for the entire $250K+ Supercharger installation and for the electricity to power it. They may even be leasing the parking spaces. There's nothing state-sponsored about Tesla's part of this. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that NH will also install some alternate chargers at state expense.

The perception of "EV elitism" will fade when Tesla offers a $35K car in 2017. Also by 2017, we should see at least one other manufacturer sharing Tesla's supercharger network. The cost of a Tesla correlates directly to the present cost of lithium batteries. If any other manufacturer tried to make a 250-mile EV right now, it would also be selling at a luxury car price. With the Model S, Tesla was determined to make an electric car that didn't have to make apologies for its range and performance. They knew such a car would be expensive initially, but that's how it works with new technologies. Flat screen televisions were $15K in 1995. Now you can buy a bigger one at Costco for $500.

 

[essaunders]

Tesla pays for the entire $250K+ Supercharger installation and for the electricity to power it. They may even be leasing the parking spaces. There's nothing state-sponsored about Tesla's part of this. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that NH will also install some alternate chargers at state expense.

The perception of "EV elitism" will fade when Tesla offers a $35K car in 2017. Also by 2017, we should see at least one other manufacturer sharing Tesla's supercharger network. The cost of a Tesla correlates directly to the present cost of lithium batteries. If any other manufacturer tried to make a 250-mile EV right now, it would also be selling at a luxury car price. With the Model S, Tesla was determined to make an electric car that didn't have to make apologies for its range and performance. They knew such a car would be expensive initially, but that's how it works with new technologies. Flat screen televisions were $15K in 1995. Now you can buy a bigger one at Costco for $500.

I agree - tesla footing the bill for superchargers at hooksett is fine. I've gotten independent confirmation of the current agreement to this very end. Still, at a state owned facility the tesla charging should not come at the expense (opportunity cost) of other quick charge options. 6 super charge stations next to 6 CHADEMO/SAECCS combo stations would be a good mix. I'll continue to push for this. My source indicated the contractor is still working on this addition charging.

So, good news. Tesla stations first, others to follow.

- - - Updated - - -

More on hooksett: They plan to partially open northbound in the next couple of weeks. Liquor store bathrooms and gas first. Tesla and other EV later. So, should be another chance to get pictures of supercharger installation!

 

[tga]

Flat screen televisions were $15K in 1995. Now you can buy a bigger one at Costco for $500.

I hate to think how much my "early adopter lust" has cost me. Off the top of my head, I remember >$800 for a DVD player in the late 90's. I don't want to think about the "I need the first 1080p plasma released" frenzy I went on...

Since I said I'd check, no signs of EV-related work, Tesla crates, etc at Hooksett yet (not that I was expecting any). I won't clutter the thread with negative reports; I'll wait until I see something interesting to post.

More on hooksett: They plan to partially open northbound in the next couple of weeks. Liquor store bathrooms and gas first. Tesla and other EV later. So, should be another chance to get pictures of supercharger installation!

I drove through yesterday. Lot and gas pumps (16) look done. Hard to say what the current state of the new building is. Still using porta-potties. Northbound looks further along than southbound.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

I hate to think how much my "early adopter lust" has cost me. Off the top of my head, I remember >$800 for a DVD player in the late 90's. I don't want to think about the "I need the first 1080p plasma released" frenzy I went on...

Oh yeah. I remember when you could buy a 20MB hard drive for $4,500. I was one of the first in town to own a Motorola "brick" cell phone with the rubber antenna. I waited on Blu-Ray, though. Those players started at $1,000 as I recall. Now: $40.

 

[Pollux]

And now I have to edit this post because first I edited to apologize to @essaunders, and then I posted to @ToddRLockwood, and now it's all combined in a mess. So let's simplify.

To @essaunders:

Hi, @essaunders,

Please forgive me if I misspeak, as I am not familiar with any of the details of installing chargers for public use.

That said, I believe that the state does not in fact sponsor Tesla installations. Tesla pays for all of the charges associated with installing its Superchargers. Like any company, Tesla can go to the state and make a deal to rent/lease space -- this is true for all the food outlets, shops, and any areas of parking that are "reserved" for special use.​

Perhaps you might ask why it is that Nissan (Leaf), Chevrolet (Volt), and other interested EV players aren't themselves aggressively building out a nationwide charging network. They are certainly free to do so, and certainly free to agree on deploying a mutually-agreed standard (e.g., CHADEMO). Up in Canada, Sun Country is aggressively building out a public charging network that all can use for a fee. In the US, the closest might be Chargepoint or Blink but I've only seen them at destinations -- e.g., museums and libraries and Chili's -- where people are stopping for other reasons and can spend a long time charging up their cars off what I regard as slow chargers. Only Sun Country appears to be deploying high-speed chargers, where high-speed is still a ton slower than a Tesla SuperCharger.

In short: I don't buy the "state-sponsored EV elitism" charge that you are arguing for in your post. It's regular old capitalism in action.​

Thanks,
Alan

P.S. Apologies for posting a reply to you before catching up on the thread.

I'll be quite annoyed if the state puts in only tesla quick charge. I understand this is a tesla forum but it doesn't do the EV movement any good to have state-sponsored EV elitism. They really should put in a mix of CHADEMO, SAE CCS, and supercharger. Plus some 70a J1772...

And now for @ToddRLockwood...

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Hi, @ToddRLockwood,

OK, so now I've caught up on the thread. Hope you won't mind a question or two.

Tesla pays for the entire $250K+ Supercharger installation and for the electricity to power it. They may even be leasing the parking spaces. There's nothing state-sponsored about Tesla's part of this. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that NH will also install some alternate chargers at state expense.

Why should NH install any chargers at state expense? Why shouldn't they just make a deal with Chargepoint or some other vendor, and rent space to them, as they likely do with Tesla?

Does NH have some kind of charging deployment policy, at state expense?

I'm not asking these questions because I'm against public assistance in certain areas of life; but because I'm seeking information.

The perception of "EV elitism" will fade when Tesla offers a $35K car in 2017. Also by 2017, we should see at least one other manufacturer sharing Tesla's supercharger network. The cost of a Tesla correlates directly to the present cost of lithium batteries. If any other manufacturer tried to make a 250-mile EV right now, it would also be selling at a luxury car price. With the Model S, Tesla was determined to make an electric car that didn't have to make apologies for its range and performance. They knew such a car would be expensive initially, but that's how it works with new technologies. Flat screen televisions were $15K in 1995. Now you can buy a bigger one at Costco for $500.

I think we should be careful about we, ourselves, adding life to the phrase "EV elitism". Instead, I'd argue for "EV early adopters". Words matter to many people. Someone who hears me say, "I'm not an EV elitist!" immediately thinks, "what? EV elitists? who are *those* people?" Instead of apologizing for "EV elitism", i.e., countering a negative, I'd instead try to simply assert a positive. Something like, "Today, early adopters willingly bear the cost of advanced technology and the pain of debugging initial deployments."

Also, what other manufacturer do you think will be sharing Tesla's SC network by 2017?

Thanks,
Alan

- - - Updated - - -

Hello, @essaunders, again,

Hope I can ask questions about this more recent post from you without once again causing more pain than I'm solving.

Are you indicating that the contractor is in fact going to deploy MORE charging options than just the Tesla SC? That would be good news.

Thanks,
Alan

I agree - tesla footing the bill for superchargers at hooksett is fine. I've gotten independent confirmation of the current agreement to this very end. Still, at a state owned facility the tesla charging should not come at the expense (opportunity cost) of other quick charge options. 6 super charge stations next to 6 CHADEMO/SAECCS combo stations would be a good mix. I'll continue to push for this. My source indicated the contractor is still working on this addition charging.

So, good news. Tesla stations first, others to follow.

- - - Updated - - -

More on hooksett: They plan to partially open northbound in the next couple of weeks. Liquor store bathrooms and gas first. Tesla and other EV later. So, should be another chance to get pictures of supercharger installation!

 

[RiverBrick]

Why should NH install any chargers at state expense?

In the case of CHAdeMO, the availability of stations drives EV sales, which is good for the air in NH.

 

[TexasEV]

Why should NH install any chargers at state expense? Why shouldn't they just make a deal with Chargepoint or some other vendor, and rent space to them, as they likely do with Tesla?

ChargePoint is a payment network. It does not own charging stations. The site owner buys the station, sets the fees, and payment is made through the ChargePoint network. I believe Blink does own their charging stations., but no one would make a trip that depends on Blink stations working. Anyway most ChargePoint and Blink stations were installed with federal grants from the stimulus, are 30A, and therefore are of no use at a highway rest stop.

No EV other than Tesla has the electric range to make long distance trips. That's why you don't see much of an effort by others to install charging stations at highway rest stops. The Leaf and i3 with approx. 80 mile range aren't intended for long distance driving. High amp level 2 (which no car other than Teslas can use anyway) and Chademo just isn't fast enough for a reasonable experience for anyone other than a passionate EV advocate to take a trip that way.

 

[RiverBrick]

The Leaf and i3 with approx. 80 mile range aren't intended for long distance driving.

Many popular trips are 80-150 miles, so CHAdeMO opens them up to the LEAF and vehicles with similar range.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

And now for @ToddRLockwood...

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Hi, @ToddRLockwood,

OK, so now I've caught up on the thread. Hope you won't mind a question or two.

Why should NH install any chargers at state expense? Why shouldn't they just make a deal with Chargepoint or some other vendor, and rent space to them, as they likely do with Tesla?

Does NH have some kind of charging deployment policy, at state expense?

I'm not asking these questions because I'm against public assistance in certain areas of life; but because I'm seeking information.



I think we should be careful about we, ourselves, adding life to the phrase "EV elitism". Instead, I'd argue for "EV early adopters". Words matter to many people. Someone who hears me say, "I'm not an EV elitist!" immediately thinks, "what? EV elitists? who are *those* people?" Instead of apologizing for "EV elitism", i.e., countering a negative, I'd instead try to simply assert a positive. Something like, "Today, early adopters willingly bear the cost of advanced technology and the pain of debugging initial deployments."

Also, what other manufacturer do you think will be sharing Tesla's SC network by 2017?

Hi Alan,

1. Most makers of charging stations, such as ChargePoint, do not install them at their own expense the way Tesla does. ChargePoint sells its stations to anyone interested in providing EV charging, and the buyer pays for the electricity too. Some charging stations, including ChargePoint units, can be configured to charge the car owner for the electricity used plus a small profit, so that the cost of the charger can be recovered over time.

One recent exception to this is that Nissan has developed their own charging stations and is beginning to install them free-of-charge, similar to the way Tesla is. Nissan's charger is a Level 3 DC charger which uses the CHAdeMO standard—compatible with the Model S only with a $1,000 adapter. Nissan's chargers are 50kW, whereas the newest Tesla Superchargers are 120kW. In Nissan's case, I believe the property owner picks up the tab for the electricity. In most cases, that means a state or municipal government. Nine of these new Nissan chargers are currently being installed throughout Vermont.

2. States are interested in helping promote green transportation, and there may be federal highway funds to help make that happen. I'm not sure exactly what New Hampshire's policy is. Vermont has limited funds to throw at it, but they are installing some public chargers, working together with local governments and utilities.

3. I agree with your suggestion that EV Early Adopters is the correct image to project. I've actually had people in Vermont come up and thank me for paving the way for them. They know it will lead to more affordable EVs down the road.

—Todd

 

[Pollux]

@RiverBrick, @TexasEV, @ToddRLockwood -- thanks for all the info!

 

[essaunders]

good discussion. I appreciate Tesla's service (and business plan) and it is clear a single payer system is a good way to deploy this important, but marginal revenue service. I'm very much inline to consider a Tesla car - when they have a smaller, more economical option. This supercharger network is a key selling point.

As a LEAF driver I'm not looking for a free charge. In fact, just the opposite. I believe 'free' common resources are bound to be abused. This Hookset location would be key for me to get home after a trip to the Concord or lakes region (if I can't find destination charging) so having it working and available is far more important than a low cost.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

As a LEAF driver I'm not looking for a free charge. In fact, just the opposite. I believe 'free' common resources are bound to be abused. This Hookset location would be key for me to get home after a trip to the Concord or lakes region (if I can't find destination charging) so having it working and available is far more important than a low cost.

Technically, a Tesla Supercharger is not free. The cost of the stations and the electricity is factored into the retail price of a Tesla vehicle. If you purchase a base-level Model S, Supercharger compatibility is a $2,000 option (or $2,500 if added later). It is included at no extra charge on more expensive versions of the Model S. I think it is likely that this will only be offered as an option on Tesla's future lower-priced sedan, the Model 3. Every current Model S leaves the factory with supercharger-compatible hardware. Activating it simply requires a software update. Once activated, it's good for the life of the car, even if the car changes owners.

So, in a way, the Supercharging option is like prepaying for fuel. While there's no limit as to how often you use it, Tesla knows from experience that owners will continue to do the vast majority of their charging at home. The Supercharger concept is not so much about saving money, as it is about convenience. That's where it really pays off.

Here's another interesting factoid about supercharging... Tesla has accommodated a handful of customers who want to have their own private supercharger, capable of charging one or two vehicles at a time. The nominal cost is in the neighborhood of $100K. And it could cost that much again to bring adequate power to your home. A factory or large office building is more likely to have this kind of utility service already existing. It's hard to imagine why someone would need such fast charging all the time, but this may simply be a classic example of the difference between "want" and "need." If you offer it, they will come.

 

[essaunders]

I didn't say supercharging was free. I know it's not. (not everyone may remember that, so I support your reply here!). I was replying the discussion about who funds (both install and operational costs) the 'other' charging.

However, EV charging (right now) is a very difficult business case to make. I'm glad Tesla appears to be working. it will be interesting to see how and if the model changes over time. In 20 years will we sill have (all nth gen) Tesla superchargers sitting next to CHADEMO next to SAECCS next to???. will gas stations morph into quick charge stations? How will payments be handled?

On another note, anyone have an 'in' with the Common Man people? Getting EV charging (of all flavors) at some/most of their locations would create a very good NH network!

 

[ToddRLockwood]

I didn't say supercharging was free. I know it's not. (not everyone may remember that, so I support your reply here!). I was replying the discussion about who funds (both install and operational costs) the 'other' charging.

However, EV charging (right now) is a very difficult business case to make. I'm glad Tesla appears to be working. it will be interesting to see how and if the model changes over time. In 20 years will we sill have (all nth gen) Tesla superchargers sitting next to CHADEMO next to SAECCS next to???. will gas stations morph into quick charge stations? How will payments be handled?

On another note, anyone have an 'in' with the Common Man people? Getting EV charging (of all flavors) at some/most of their locations would create a very good NH network!

I realize now that I didn't completely answer your original concern. As I recall, from reading early posts about the Hookset project, a blend of charging technologies was recommended from the outset. Obviously, the Tesla community wanted to make sure that those involved in the decision process understood, that even though generic Level 2 chargers can be used with a Tesla Model S, they are not a practical solution for long-distance travel. Likewise, a 50kW CHAdeMO charger would require Model S owners to sit there considerably longer than a 120kW Supercharger would, not to mention the $1,000 CHAdeMO adapter it would require. My guess is that we will see at least one CHAdeMO charger and perhaps a pair of Level 2 ChargePoints, in addition to the 6-bay Tesla Supercharger.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Likewise, a 50kW CHAdeMO charger would require Model S owners to sit there considerably longer than a 120kW Supercharger would, not to mention the $1,000 CHAdeMO adapter it would require. My guess is that we will see at least one CHAdeMO charger and perhaps a pair of Level 2 ChargePoints, in addition to the 6-bay Tesla Supercharger.

Not to mention that not having Superchargers is liable to lead to severe frustration for Nissan Leaf owners. When Tesla unleashes the CHAdeMO, there could be some significant repercussions for Nissan owners used to exclusive use of CHAdeMO chargers in the USA and I'm sure that Tesla has made Nissan aware of this in discussions on Supercharger access.

 

[Pollux]

Hi, @ItsNotAboutTheMoney,

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic. I'm trying to understand the issue for a Nissan Leaf owner.

Based on what you've written, I was thinking you meant that the lack of SuperChargers would create frustration for Leaf owners because Tesla owners would be sitting on the Level 2/Chargepoint and CHAdeMO adapters (and even more so once Tesla provides CHAdeMO adapters). But then you reference discussions with Nissan on Supercharger access.

Is there some plan or discussion out there about letting Nissan Leaf owners gain access to Tesla Superchargers?

Or some plan or discussion out there about providing much more aggressive access by Tesla owners to CHAdeMO, not just the $1K adapter?

Thanks!

Alan

Not to mention that not having Superchargers is liable to lead to severe frustration for Nissan Leaf owners. When Tesla unleashes the CHAdeMO, there could be some significant repercussions for Nissan owners used to exclusive use of CHAdeMO chargers in the USA and I'm sure that Tesla has made Nissan aware of this in discussions on Supercharger access.

 

[wycolo]

> and Chademo just isn't fast enough for a reasonable experience [TexasEV]

Beginning at or about the 140 miles to 160 miles level in an MS85 you cannot tell the difference between a Chademo or an SC, 50 kw is 50 kw. This would be more than just 'topping off' and if I were to spy a Chademo Monolith on the side of the road I would definitely consider stopping for an infusion.
--

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Hi, @ItsNotAboutTheMoney,

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic. I'm trying to understand the issue for a Nissan Leaf owner.

Based on what you've written, I was thinking you meant that the lack of SuperChargers would create frustration for Leaf owners because Tesla owners would be sitting on the Level 2/Chargepoint and CHAdeMO adapters (and even more so once Tesla provides CHAdeMO adapters). But then you reference discussions with Nissan on Supercharger access.

Is there some plan or discussion out there about letting Nissan Leaf owners gain access to Tesla Superchargers?

Or some plan or discussion out there about providing much more aggressive access by Tesla owners to CHAdeMO, not just the $1K adapter?

Thanks!

Alan

Nissan's hands-off, mind-changing approach to CHAdeMO means locations often have a single CHAdeMO charger, and they are 50kW, with the expectation of charging Leafs.

Along comes Tesla now near release of a CHAdeMO adapter for a car with a large battery and charging capability that allow it to be used for long trips, and owners who want to use that ability. As I see it, while cost, range and Superchargers act as ways that keep Teslas away from the CHAdeMOs, the long-trip capability increases the pool of users for whom a given CHAdeMO would be relevant, especially until there's greater Supercharger build-out. Plus, the large battery means that a charging event could be much longer than in a Leaf. Similarly there's a potential reverse problem that if short-range Leafs can use all CHAdeMO units, then any attempt to provide a comprehensive CHAdeMO network for long-range BEVs would increase competition from short-range BEVs.

So, what I meant was that in discussions on Supercharger access, Tesla can say to Nissan that it is in Nissan's interest to separate fast charging for long-range and short-range BEVs and that collaboration on the already well-established Supercharger network will be a very low-cost way of achieving that.

 

[Pollux]

I see your points. Thanks for clarifying!

IMHO, one of the problems we face with electric charging is evolving standards and use cases. Gas refueling for passenger vehicles is pretty simple: one nozzle size. Small variations in gasoline composition are accommodated by multi-fuel pump stations. Most cars can pull up to almost any pump in almost any station and successfully and quickly refuel.

By comparison, consider diesel. It fits very well into the existing fueling infrastructure. These days, under some circumstances, it can offer advantages compared to regular gasoline types for range, emissions and cost. Yet, for passenger cars, diesel struggles to take off... in part because of the widely-held and not-too-inaccurate perception that diesel pumps are hard to find!

Unsurprisingly to me, electric vehicles look very much like they are held back not just by charge time but also because even among the chargers that are deployed, interoperability is a significant problem. Distinguishing between long-range and short-range BEVs looks to me like a continuation of this interoperability problem. Better to have a one-size-fits-most-everyone solution, as with today's gas pumps. Instead, add more electron pumps.

Alan

Nissan's hands-off, mind-changing approach to CHAdeMO means locations often have a single CHAdeMO charger, and they are 50kW, with the expectation of charging Leafs.

Along comes Tesla now near release of a CHAdeMO adapter for a car with a large battery and charging capability that allow it to be used for long trips, and owners who want to use that ability. As I see it, while cost, range and Superchargers act as ways that keep Teslas away from the CHAdeMOs, the long-trip capability increases the pool of users for whom a given CHAdeMO would be relevant, especially until there's greater Supercharger build-out. Plus, the large battery means that a charging event could be much longer than in a Leaf. Similarly there's a potential reverse problem that if short-range Leafs can use all CHAdeMO units, then any attempt to provide a comprehensive CHAdeMO network for long-range BEVs would increase competition from short-range BEVs.

So, what I meant was that in discussions on Supercharger access, Tesla can say to Nissan that it is in Nissan's interest to separate fast charging for long-range and short-range BEVs and that collaboration on the already well-established Supercharger network will be a very low-cost way of achieving that.