New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[AnOutsider]

Did you make a decision?

What did you do?!

Haven't made a choice yet. I told my wife and we'll discuss it when I get home from work. If we don't cancel and decide to keep it, there's always the idea that we could probably resell it if it doesn't work for us.

A naive question, what does cancel mean?

do you get to be in the front of non-signature series? or you end up at the very end of the reservation list so far?

Well, I guess the true 3 options are Keep, Downgrade or Cancel. If I were to downgrade I would've ended up at the beginning of the production queue. I was told that production vehicles wouldn't arrive until 2016. Then again, I was also told that the seats do fold and when I challenged was then told it was a mistake, so sounds like Tesla still doesn't even know what's going on internally.

 

[ProSkeptic]

I just got the call: Confirm today or cancel.

Yikes... It's one thing for Tesla to want to cut ties with a guy who could have proverbially come in off the street and bought a Model S, but it's entirely another to be willing to alienate a previous buyer who has had a deposit down on a Model X for 2+ years.

 

[hpham007]

My suggestion to those who would consider another vehicle: Take two golf bags to the auto center and attempt to put store them in the engine compartment of any of the sport utility vehicles you like.

Why would anyone do that since they can easily fold down the seats and put the golf bags in the back?

:smile:

 

[stopcrazypp]

Why would anyone do that since they can easily fold down the seats and put the golf bags in the back?

:smile:

Maybe they have people sitting in those seats? One of the advantages of the X is supposedly it has more significantly more storage space than other CUVs/SUVs when the seats are occupied (I know this is a problem with many of the 7 passenger SUVs). I think we should wait until we have all the specs first as we are going by speculation right now (although unfortunately some don't have that choice).

 

[dirkhh]

Well, hope you make out better. I just got the call: Confirm today or cancel.

Seriously? That's the new level of "customer focus" that Tesla is displaying? To someone who gave them an interest free loan of $40k for 3.5 years?

 

[ohmman]

Well, I guess the true 3 options are Keep, Downgrade or Cancel. If I were to downgrade I would've ended up at the beginning of the production queue. I was told that production vehicles wouldn't arrive until 2016. Then again, I was also told that the seats do fold and when I challenged was then told it was a mistake, so sounds like Tesla still doesn't even know what's going on internally.

While I find it disappointing you weren't given more leeway on your decision, I'm glad to hear you do have a downgrade option. That's the option I'd likely choose in your position, but only because I would really want to have details before finalizing the order. Reselling after delivery is a headache I wouldn't want to approach.

Your 2016 number is interesting, and should change some of the estimates on the production ramp thread..

 

[dirkhh]

Well, I guess the true 3 options are Keep, Downgrade or Cancel. If I were to downgrade I would've ended up at the beginning of the production queue. I was told that production vehicles wouldn't arrive until 2016. Then again, I was also told that the seats do fold and when I challenged was then told it was a mistake, so sounds like Tesla still doesn't even know what's going on internally.

Wow, there's a ton of conflicting information in that little quote.
From other posts here some Sig reservation holders were told "you go to the end of the line". Others were told "you go to the approximate spot you would have had had you made a production reservation". You were told "you go to the beginning of the production queue".
Well, now that I think about this - given how low your Sig # was, the last two are probably fairly identical...
And then you were told that the production vehicles won't arrive until 2016. That is certainly HUGE news. There was lots of analysis here about the ramp, but I think not a single person assumed that Tesla would only sell 1200 Model X this year (well, I posted that I assumed not even all the Sigs would be delivered this year... but no one listens to me, anyway

 

[AnOutsider]

Seriously? That's the new level of "customer focus" that Tesla is displaying? To someone who gave them an interest free loan of $40k for 3.5 years?

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't extremely disappointed, but not too surprised either. Tesla isn't as customer-focused as they were pre-Model S IMO. Frankly, there's plenty of others eager to fill in the space should someone back out, and I think they know that.

While I find it disappointing you weren't given more leeway on your decision, I'm glad to hear you do have a downgrade option. That's the option I'd likely choose in your position, but only because I would really want to have details before finalizing the order. Reselling after delivery is a headache I wouldn't want to approach.

Your 2016 number is interesting, and should change some of the estimates on the production ramp thread..

Yeah, resale can be a bit of a pain, but if ramp is that slow, maybe not? Downgrade is also an option, but with the way we've been feeling the last few days we were leaning more on cancelling. Fully aware that's more of an emotional than a rational decision though, which is why we plan to discuss it later.

Wow, there's a ton of conflicting information in that little quote.
From other posts here some Sig reservation holders were told "you go to the end of the line". Others were told "you go to the approximate spot you would have had had you made a production reservation". You were told "you go to the beginning of the production queue".
Well, now that I think about this - given how low your Sig # was, the last two are probably fairly identical...

Yeah, I was Production #12 (IIRC), so I was already fairly low on the list (Bonnie still chides me for forgetting my checkbook that night :tongue

And then you were told that the production vehicles won't arrive until 2016. That is certainly HUGE news. There was lots of analysis here about the ramp, but I think not a single person assumed that Tesla would only sell 1200 Model X this year (well, I posted that I assumed not even all the Sigs would be delivered this year... but no one listens to me, anyway

Keep in mind that I don't particularly put much faith in the person that relayed that information (given that they first said that the seats do indeed fold). It could be true or it could be the line they're told to tow to urge people not to cancel (you should see some of the responses I get, it's GOTTA be straight out of an FAQ email they sent out) I think some of the staff may be just as frustrated at the lack of information from the mothership, but sir Elon wants to keep it on the low for whatever reason.

 

[hockeythug]

Has anyone tried to escalate a their concern to someone who actually knows what they are talking about? Does such individual exist at the company?

 

[AlMc]

My suggestion to those who would consider another vehicle: Take two golf bags to the auto center and attempt to put store them in the engine compartment of any of the sport utility vehicles you like.

Mark.....I really appreciate all the info you have provided....but the above comment is a bit off base. There are some here, like me, that would give up all the frunk space for the utility gain of folding seats.

 

[dirkhh]

Mark.....I really appreciate all the info you have provided....but the above comment is a bit off base. There are some here, like me, that would give up all the frunk space for the utility gain of folding seats.

Most definitely that includes me. I have used the frunk in my two years of driving a Model S maybe 5 times. I have used the folded down rear seat dozens of times. This is obviously not a reasonable or realistic trade-off as these two things are unrelated, but yes, a folding 2nd row and large flat cargo space is 100x more useful to me than the frunk.

 

[CarlK]

To each his/her own I guess for those owners. I just don't understand why it's so important for the dogs to have that additional 1.5 feet of room in a CUV format, but it's obviously not important enough to buy a full-seater van to add a good 4-7 feet of roaming room.

View attachment 94628

That's exactly what I meant. Some people kept saying I couldn't do this or that because of seat that does not fold flat but in fact you still got a lot of room there. You only trade 1.5 feet of length to a lot more depth but total volume is still about the same. There might be some rare situations that one will work and the other will not but this can go both ways. For example how would you hold a large ~4' tall box in the space behind the front seat with two or even four people still sitting in the back with folded 2nd row seat instead of seat that move forward? You can always find some challenging situations for either design but to me it's not worth it if it means you need to trade the comfort and convenience of passengers who will use the rear seats for it.

 

[aesculus]

That's exactly what I meant. Some people kept saying I couldn't do this or that because of seat that does not fold flat but in fact you still got a lot of room there. You only trade 1.5 feet of length to a lot more depth but total volume is still about the same. There might be some rare situations that one will work and the other will not but this can go both ways. For example how would you hold a large ~4' tall box in the space behind the front seat with two or even four people still sitting in the back with folded 2nd row seat instead of seat that move forward? You can always find some challenging situations for either design but to me it's not worth it if it means you need to trade the comfort and convenience of passengers who will use the rear seats for it.

CarlK: Please go back and look once again at the original prototype seats. They did everything you mention plus fold flat:

They sat on pedestals so you stick stuff underneath, they moved back and forth so you could accommodate your 4' tall box and they folded flat so people could put long objects likes skis, fishing poles, pipes or whatever they needed to do on their 'occasional' utility adventures.

And I would also like you to go to Home Depot and sit in the parking lot for an hour and watch all of the men, women and couples who come out and shove all sorts of long, tall, fat objects in their cars/suvs/cuvs all day long. These are not occasional activities that are done once in a lifetime like you seem to indicate.

 

[Lyon]

This thread reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. My wife had been given a family heirloom. It was a railroad map of the state of Maine that had been in her family since the 1860s. It had been rolled up and poorly treated but we both love history and family stories and so we decided to shell out an absurd (by my estimation as a law student) amount of money to have the thing professionally framed. The problem was that it was about 4.5 feet square and so the finished product was about 5.5 feet square and absolutely needed to stand upright during transport from the framing shop to our house. I did my research and found out that I could rent a uHaul box van for $19.99 and we could bring it home with some help from a friend. Uhaul even published the specs for the opening of the door for me! I reserved the truck. I got to the rental center and they brought around an older model of the same vehicle that was longer but lower. I borrowed a tape measure to check out the opening and it turns out framed map wasn't going to fit inside standing upright. I explained the situation to the rental guy and, oddly enough, I had to argue with him for a while before he pulled around the truck I had seen on the website with the taller door and cargo box. The man's main point in the argument was that the interior volume of the two trucks were the same so I was getting what I had reserved. Mine was, obviously, that the truck I reserved fit my needs and the one they wanted to rent me did not because they were different in other ways.

My point, to the extent that I have one, is that, while I don't NEED the flat folding second row (I'm disappointed they don't), I don't think I'm in a position to judge the uses for which people need to have those second row of seats fold down. I think it's fairly obvious that Tesla set the expectation that the seats would fold down. We know that's not true now and folks who were depending on that now have a difficult choice to make. Frankly I think not having the seats fold is an error on Tesla's part (which may have been unavoidable due to time constraints) because their will be folks who won't buy the Model X because of it.

 

[CarlK]

CarlK: Please go back and look once again at the original prototype seats. They did everything you mention plus fold flat:

They sat on pedestals so you stick stuff underneath, they moved back and forth so you could accommodate your 4' tall box and they folded flat so people could put long objects likes skis, fishing poles, pipes or whatever they needed to do on their 'occasional' utility adventures.

And I would also like you to go to Home Depot and sit in the parking lot for an hour and watch all of the men, women and couples who come out and shove all sorts of long, tall, fat objects in their cars/suvs/cuvs all day long. These are not occasional activities that are done once in a lifetime like you seem to indicate.

Then ask yourself why would they not to make the seat foldable? Don't you think there must be conflicts with other things that are more useful to people they want the seat to do? Or you think the designers just hate you and want to make you suffer?

And tell me why you think you can't shove all sort of long, tall, fat objects those people shove in their cars/suvs/cuvs in your X with the currect design? I also see a lot people shove all sort of even longer, taller, fater objects in their pickups/vans/trailers at Home depot. Tell me how are you going to do that with your X even if the seat can fold flat? To be honest people who take their dirty old pickups/vans/trailers to Home Depot will probably laugh at people who are loading stuff in a CUV, no less a $120K CUV, as stupid amatures. Don't be so fixated on a feature that has never been the perfect solution for everything.

My point, to the extent that I have one, is that, while I don't NEED the flat folding second row (I'm disappointed they don't), I don't think I'm in a position to judge the uses for which people need to have those second row of seats fold down. I think it's fairly obvious that Tesla set the expectation that the seats would fold down. We know that's not true now and folks who were depending on that now have a difficult choice to make. Frankly I think not having the seats fold is an error on Tesla's part (which may have been unavoidable due to time constraints) because their will be folks who won't buy the Model X because of it.

As I have said many times already it would have been very easy for them just to make seat that fold. They already made that in th prototype. They must have found some other functions that they thought are more useful than seat that fold flat. The new function must be in general a significant improvement otherewise there is no reason they would go through all the troubles instead just make a simple foldable bench seat like the one in the S. We just need to wait till everything is known.

As for the notion that why not just give us the same as what was shown in the prototype, Tesla is not that kind of company. The prototype was made 3 years ago. They don't stop making progress for three years. Even the S is a different, and better, car from the first production model out of the line three years ago. Again let's wait and see what is offered before worry about it too much. From what we know now I already feel that I like the car much better than what it was three years ago.

 

[andrewket]

Most definitely that includes me. I have used the frunk in my two years of driving a Model S maybe 5 times. I have used the folded down rear seat dozens of times. This is obviously not a reasonable or realistic trade-off as these two things are unrelated, but yes, a folding 2nd row and large flat cargo space is 100x more useful to me than the frunk.

Interesting. I use the frunk more than the folding seats.

 

[eloder]

CarlK: Please go back and look once again at the original prototype seats. They did everything you mention plus fold flat:

But less comfortable, and possibly no independent movement, and possibly no ventilated cooled seats, and most likely less safe.

While only Tesla will know the exact reasons, precedent with other vehicles gives us enough reason to know their reasoning.

And I would also like you to go to Home Depot and sit in the parking lot for an hour and watch all of the men, women and couples who come out and shove all sorts of long, tall, fat objects in their cars/suvs/cuvs all day long. These are not occasional activities that are done once in a lifetime like you seem to indicate.

I'd like you to go to a graveyard and see how many people require burial. I guarantee people will be buried left and right! Yet, all of us here have never needed to be buried. Strange how that works out, going to someplace that represents a tiny minority doing a specific activity instead of the vast majority!

What's done is done, and I really hope Tesla doesn't cater to those who want to lessen safety rating and comfort for the majority of buyers. There's no way to get a comfortable falcon-winged electric supercar-performing SUV/CUV if the MX fails on second seat comfort, but there are tons of ways to get seats that fold flat in other vehicles.

 

[jomo25]

Interesting. I use the frunk more than I do the folding seats.

Similarly, my frunk is used perpetually (storage of stroller). I've folded the rear seats down in my S twice in my 29 months of ownership.

 

[davidc18]

I will wait to see the X in person to see if it will actually work for our family to replace our Honda Odyssey. I have serious doubts that the doors are going to work in our garage and I would much rather have had the X in production with standard doors and seats than what we appear to have today.

 

[jomo25]

CarlK: Please go back and look once again at the original prototype seats. They did everything you mention plus fold flat

Again, the prototypes were just that; prototypes. Probably marketed also to have max appeal. But when they transitioned from prototype to real vehicle, they had to make some compromises. Because it just wasn't feasible to be everything to everyone that the prototypes tried to do. And ease of entry/exit, max-star safety, max cargo volume were probably prioritized over longest flattest storage space. And yes, that will disappoint some, but there were going to be disappointments regardless.