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New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

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Of course the Leaf outsells the S in since it is a small fraction of the price of a Tesla. But it is my belief that it would sell even better if it was more attractive and less of a "weirdmobile" in appearance (and if Nissan dealers put more effort into promoting it).

No matter how conventional it might look, you can't get away from the fact that it doesn't go very far so you're always looking for a place to plug it in. A car that can't drive to the airport and back without charging isn't particularly practical except as a second car for short distance commuting.
 
except as a second car for short distance commuting.
Thing is, so many households have 2 vehicles, that there's nothing wrong with one of them being a short range commuter. The odds of both drivers in the household needing the long range one at the same time are really low, and the cost savings in gasoline will pay for one of those cars in no time. But who wants to drive something that looks and feels like a punishment to do it?
 
Thing is, so many households have 2 vehicles, that there's nothing wrong with one of them being a short range commuter.
I never said there was. A Leaf is our second car because Denise didn't want a large car (and I could have purchased a nice CPO for about the same price). It's just that the range limits the market, and most second cars are the former primary car unless the previous second car was wrecked (hence the Leaf).
 
STEALERSHIPS. Anyone who wants confirmation only need to go to three or four dealerships and inquire about EVs. I did before I bought an S. The last one was the local MB where a wise guy told me that the batteries are toxic waste and need to be shipped at great financial and environmental expense to a special disposal area in Nevada after they fail in a year or so. Three years later, the gigafactory! Gotta love it.
 
Thing is, so many households have 2 vehicles, that there's nothing wrong with one of them being a short range commuter. The odds of both drivers in the household needing the long range one at the same time are really low, and the cost savings in gasoline will pay for one of those cars in no time. But who wants to drive something that looks and feels like a punishment to do it?

Very true. I couldn't get my wife out of her BMW and into the Leaf for about a year. It took her riding in it with my daughters (since it is the only vehicle insured for my kids to drive) until she started to take a liking to it. Now she uses whenever she can and the BMW stays parked most of the time. She even asked me about it being able to make it to Bellis Fair and back (the mall in the States close to us -- but a long way for the Leaf) and she did make it there and back on one charge. She has no range anxiety. Then again, every time I get in her BMW it's nearly on empty and she tells me there's lots left. I guess that's a female thing. She laughed recently when telling me that one lady was waiving at her but she couldn't recognize who she was, then she realized she was also driving a Leaf... ha.

So it does grow on you. But it's too bad it has to.
 
No matter how conventional it might look, you can't get away from the fact that it doesn't go very far so you're always looking for a place to plug it in. A car that can't drive to the airport and back without charging isn't particularly practical except as a second car for short distance commuting.
The Leaf would work perfectly for our family. We live in a smaller city and our commute is negligible. We would have bought a Leaf if not for our experience at the dealership and the MASSIVE differential in lease rates vs California and Georgia in the US.
 
The Leaf would work perfectly for our family. We live in a smaller city and our commute is negligible. We would have bought a Leaf if not for our experience at the dealership and the MASSIVE differential in lease rates vs California and Georgia in the US.
The Leaf would work perfectly for most of the 140,000 people in Kingston. Too bad the dealership model is so flawed. It's just not in the dealers interest to promote EV's, despite global warming.
 
I will say this, concerning dealerships and EV's, with respect to Nissan, I always had to talk to "the EV guy" as nobody else had anything to do with EV's. And if you caught him on a bad day or whatever, your experience wasn't that good. I had good interactions, but also was met with the "have you considered a new blah" where blah is whatever car they were forcing the guy to push on me rather than used Leaf's.

Just to be clear though...the dealership model will need to do a full mea culpa once Model 3 takes off as they will see the writing on the wall, have read it, digested it and passed through all the levels of denial. Circa 2019 is my bet where traditional dealerships carve out separate brand new brick and mortar locations that only sell EV's and compete directly against other ICE dealerships.
 
Out of curiosity I went to my local Nissan dealer so check out the Leaf since they showed it on their dealer website and they said they don't carry it. Kinda confirmed for me the whole ICE vs. EV thing when even Nissan can't get it's act together and have all dealers carry their product line. Tesla is doing the right thing by keeping franchises out of the mix and going direct.

Different dealers have dramatically different attitudes. One Nissan dealer in Spokane (Jeremko) is quite positive about electrics. He and Leaf owner brought a number of Leafs to National Drive Electric this year. They gave significant number of test rides. He's looking for the new Neafs with longer range coming out. They also vary a lot in their attitude about use of their chargers. Some will let Tesla use them while others won't even let a Leaf use them if not purchased from them.
 
Different dealers have dramatically different attitudes. One Nissan dealer in Spokane (Jeremko) is quite positive about electrics. He and Leaf owner brought a number of Leafs to National Drive Electric this year. They gave significant number of test rides. He's looking for the new Neafs with longer range coming out. They also vary a lot in their attitude about use of their chargers. Some will let Tesla use them while others won't even let a Leaf use them if not purchased from them.

And that's largely the issue. Great variability. Tesla for all its flaws has a consistent sales experience and showroom everywhere.
 
The comments in the article are...quite something.

Oooh ... I didn't read the COMMENTS; I thought you mean "quotes" of what the people said in the article proper. So, then I wrote this in response to you, thinking you were talking about the in-article quotes:

Yes they are, to us. But those are real jobs and real businesses (profiting off of dirty oil cars). I took a few things from the article:


1. EV promoters would do well to educate public better on EV use in non-condescending but simple ways. How far does it go, from Capitola Mall to The Great Mall, for instance, as a benchmark; would a Leaf make it, if they drive like I do? What about Gilroy Fairgrounds to Los Banos Airport? San Jose Convention Center to San Francisco Airport in rush hour? Merced City Hall to Yosemite Half Dome Tourist Center? Like, how much would the electricity cost for that, how fast could you drive, with how much air conditioning (it gets 100F+) or heater (last night it was 27F in my drive), how much of the battery charge would you need? What are the supported charging standards? What options exist? How would it work? Cost? Etc..

If we educated everyone (including ourselves) better about this stuff, then dealers won't have to spend as much time educating us. I don't think it would hurt the EV promoters to do this, even though they could make fun of the situation in a condescending way if they wanted to waste time and effort.


2. Those businesses don't want to loose their homes, families, etc., that depend on those revenue streams. They want another child but can't afford it and might loose their life (at least marriage, home, family) if they loose their work? That scares the hell out of them. My answer: the market has to adapt, but part of that adaption is how it adapts. No one can say for sure, but a lot of us can understand the dynamics enough to help it along here and there, for the benefit of various parties as it progresses.

For instance, we could stop preparing and educating as many new mechanics, and drop the # of new mechanics educated to the level we think we will need, as a temporary glut forms and then it resettles down to the new normal for EVs; we'll need no mechanics for almost a decade, then we'll have to start making them regularly again but at a reduced rate compared to now --- someone in that business ought to track that properly (probably via supply and demand dynamics unhindered -- correct for the inaccuracy created by government handouts). In addition, dealers will have to figure out how to market their mechanics for other business while they downsize and consolidate their mechanical divisions relative to the number of cars they sell and maintain, which in a growing population, actually just means they don't have to build any new facilities: it will sort of just keep even, plus or minus, and they can work the plus and minus according to the marketplace. When demand is going up but efficiency also matches the increased demand, then the supply can stay the same. Mechanics, dealers, etc., need to realize this. We can remind them. Then they won't be caught flat footed when the EV they just sold doesn't have as much maintenance required.
They probably already do realize it though, and are afraid the switchover to electric will be more abrupt than they are ready for. So, they need to furlough some maintenance workers. Keep up! Mechanics would have to go find other work. They can install solar panels, for instance. (Obviously, I'm talking about the more dynamic fringe elements; the good mechanics would stay mechanics and so forth, the great ones might move up to another industry, etc.)

There's still maintenance required. Just look at Tesla. Eventually they'll get better at it, but there's still maintenance.

Maybe finding jobs for the mechanics would be helpful. Not some government program of course! Government sucks. Something more like create businesses that eat up mechanics for their positions.

Another example is that it's a transitioning marketplace. There are old players that are in bed with the old profit systems that don't want to give up on their old profits. They are going to, are, and have been, throwing impediments up to slow everything down. EV promoters' response should be to continue to make viable compelling vehicles. I'm sorry but that's the name of the game, competition. I have no magic bullets there other than the work of real work.
 
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Of course the Leaf outsells the S in since it is a small fraction of the price of a Tesla. But it is my belief that it would sell even better if it was more attractive and less of a "weirdmobile" in appearance (and if Nissan dealers put more effort into promoting it).

Maybe 2015 snuck up on you? Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

Tesla is outselling the Leaf quite nicely in 2015. Over 27% more Teslsas than Leafs.

Tesla has also already beat out 2014 US Tesla sales with just the first 10 months of 2015. On track to beating US sales by ~30% by end of 2015.

With 2016 seeing refreshes of the two closes competitors by volume (Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf) I'm looking forward to all 3 seeing noticeable rise in sales for 2016 and still expecting Tesla to stay on top.
 
Maybe 2015 snuck up on you? Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

Tesla is outselling the Leaf quite nicely in 2015. Over 27% more Teslsas than Leafs.

Tesla has also already beat out 2014 US Tesla sales with just the first 10 months of 2015. On track to beating US sales by ~30% by end of 2015.

With 2016 seeing refreshes of the two closes competitors by volume (Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf) I'm looking forward to all 3 seeing noticeable rise in sales for 2016 and still expecting Tesla to stay on top.

If they correct the safety defects of the Nissan (Datsun), I'll seriously reconsider it and see if it fits my range needs. I welcome this. Probably it won't fit my range needs (my current commute one way is 49 miles and includes a 1,000 foot hill). In which case I'm still dreaming of a Tesla Dual Motor model :)

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Thing is, so many households have 2 vehicles, that there's nothing wrong with one of them being a short range commuter. The odds of both drivers in the household needing the long range one at the same time are really low, and the cost savings in gasoline will pay for one of those cars in no time. But who wants to drive something that looks and feels like a punishment to do it?


Exactly.

The referenced article got the vegetable wrong in my opinion. I love broccoli. They should have used cauliflower.

I would already have a Toyota Prius right now if it weren't for the fact that it was a Toyota, a Prius, really really ugly, or driven by awful people. But the Prius is ALL FOUR. No way am I going to drive that thing. Now if they could make a car that isn't a toy, that doesn't have a name sounding like Church Piss, that looks really nice, is safe (unlike the Leaf), and doesn't have the cache of being driven by almost nothing but the stupidest drivers on the planet, then I'd already have one if I could afford it. Of course, now, I want the holy grail, an EV, so I'm being even more demanding. Ugh. They have an S550 Hybrid Plug In now, but it won't get 10 years old used car prices until ... well, 10 years from now. So I have to increase my income grrrr
 
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Maybe 2015 snuck up on you? Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard
Tesla is outselling the Leaf quite nicely in 2015. Over 27% more Teslsas than Leafs.
Understood. Note that my post did not give a timeframe, and for that I apologize. I was referring to global sales over the past several years. Of course the Leaf was launched two years before the Model S, but to date the Leaf has outsold the S by quite a bit, and Leaf sales may be off right now as people wait for the next generation version.
See Worldwide Sales Of Nissan LEAF Tops 170,000 Vehicles for total Leaf and Tesla sales globally (article is 5 months old).
That said, Model S sales in 2015 are of course incredibly impressive for such an expensive car! I think not even Elon imagined in 2012 that Tesla would be selling so many cars just a few years later.
 
Oooh ... I didn't read the COMMENTS

Comments indeed. Take the upvoted comment by Dan S. Auto Salesman.

* He says it takes 7-8 hours to fully charge a Nissan Leaf and I only charge mine about 2 hours a day. Total misrepresentation of how long it takes to charge a 24 kWh pack (about 21 kWh usable when new, even less down the road). With a 30a evse it's 2.7 hours for a full charge and most don't drive it to 0% so charging back to full is more likely to be 2 hours than it is 2.5 hours. Even if you look at the 30 kWh 2016 version it'll have 27.5 kWh usable and charge from empty to full in 4 hours on 240v @ 27.5a nowhere near as slow as he wants people to believe.

* He says EVs are typically compact cars and people want midsized. EPA lists Midsize car as 110–119.9 cu ft. Nissan Leaf is 116 cu ft nearly the top of that range. Model S is 120 cu ft officially .1 cu ft over mid sized.

I think he is poorly informed or more likely just whistling past the graveyard.

Yeah people want a mid sized car. No most people can't identify a mid sized car when they see it on the lot because they are comparing it to Large Cars and SUVs and CUVs and Minivans and Pickup trucks.

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Understood. Note that my post did not give a timeframe, and for that I apologize. I was referring to global sales over the past several years. Of course the Leaf was launched two years before the Model S, but to date the Leaf has outsold the S by quite a bit, and Leaf sales may be off right now as people wait for the next generation version.
See Worldwide Sales Of Nissan LEAF Tops 170,000 Vehicles for total Leaf and Tesla sales globally (article is 5 months old).
That said, Model S sales in 2015 are of course incredibly impressive for such an expensive car! I think not even Elon imagined in 2012 that Tesla would be selling so many cars just a few years later.

As of June 2015, over 180,000 Leafs had been sold worldwide since December 2010.

By the same time Tesla had sold ~78,000 Model S and a about 2,500 roadsters.

But between June 2015 and now Tesla has outsold Nissan Leaf at almost a 2 to 1 rate. Cutting the Leaf lead by 6,000 or so for the second half of 2015.

As of March 2013, Nissan has an installed capacity to produce 250,000 Leafs per year, 150,000 at Smyrna, TN U.S., 50,000 at Oppama, Japan, and 50,000 at Sunderland, England.

Tesla currently has capacity to produce about 100,000 a year at Fremont, CA U.S. I expect they'll hit closer to 75,000 or 80,000 in 2016.

So the question is will Nissan turn up the crank and make more than Tesla in 2016 or will they make some smaller number and leave Tesla in the lead on the yearly basis?

We know Tesla will crank them out pretty much as fast as they can trying to increase market share.
 
A car that can't drive to the airport and back without charging isn't particularly practical except as a second car for short distance commuting.

Funny you should say that. I looked at eGolf and thought it a nice driving experience. Model S is a real stretch for me, and a lower-priced EV that looks like "a normal car" had great appeal, but I totally lost interest when I realized that I live 42 miles from LAX, so a fully charged eGolf, even if it actually delivered EPA-rated 83 miles per charge, would not enable me to go to LAX and back to pick up my daughters when they fly in for a visit.
 
Funny you should say that. I looked at eGolf and thought it a nice driving experience. Model S is a real stretch for me, and a lower-priced EV that looks like "a normal car" had great appeal, but I totally lost interest when I realized that I live 42 miles from LAX, so a fully charged eGolf, even if it actually delivered EPA-rated 83 miles per charge, would not enable me to go to LAX and back to pick up my daughters when they fly in for a visit.

It's relative. I had an EV that had a 120 mile range. But the airport is 82 miles away. My solution? I planned on owning a car with over 200 mile range, back in 2006. That's what I worked for. In 2012 it happened, and I didn't buy an interim EV. I am strongly convinced that a short range commuter electric does more to convince people that electrics are useless than any other advertising. Big Auto knew what they were doing. They pretended to support CARB, they pretended to give people what they wanted, but they lied. They are still lying. Not one manufacturer outside of Tesla is doing anything more than a compliance car.

I was almost amazed to show off my Tesla to a couple we took out to lunch. He had absolutely no idea that there was an electric out there that was not only no compromise, but greatly desirable. Of course, they all say it's too expensive, until we looked at what he was driving: A near $70K pickup truck. Add gas and maintenance, and *viola*, you paid for a Tesla. You just don't drive one.
 
It's relative. I had an EV that had a 120 mile range. But the airport is 82 miles away. My solution? I planned on owning a car with over 200 mile range, back in 2006. That's what I worked for. In 2012 it happened, and I didn't buy an interim EV. I am strongly convinced that a short range commuter electric does more to convince people that electrics are useless than any other advertising. Big Auto knew what they were doing.
100% agree. Especially once people realize that EPA range is for a good day when new. 25% reduction on a bad day.