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Newbie Options Trading

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Here is the IB RegT Margin requirements for Covered calls/puts:

"
Reg T Margin

Initial/RegT End of Day MarginInitial Stock Margin Requirement + In the Money Amount 4

Maintenance MarginInitial Stock Margin Requirement + In the Money Amount 4
"
OK, are you using margin to own the TSLA shares? I mean maybe you bought them while it was OK to use them for margin and you are grandfathered somehow. That would make sense. If you own them with cash though even that requirement makes it look like you could do it. (If I'm understanding it correctly)
 
Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert in this stuff, and I don't use IB so anything specific to them I have no clue. But having said that, you haven't talked about whatever other holdings you have in your account, and whether or not you are actually using your margin loan. I'm guessing you are. So for sake of discussion, let's pretend that your equity percentage is 80% overall, you have $500k worth of stocks but you owe $100k on your margin loan. So, of your 300 shares of TSLA, you really only own 240 of them... the other 60 are security for part of your margin loan. Now if you sell calls against them and the call gets exercised (which you have no control over), sure you get to keep your $4 per share, but this isn't as much as the 60 shares of TSLA were worth. On the other hand, you also get the value of the shares themselves, so I don't see how this could hurt, or drive you into a margin call, or whatever. You could be in trouble in the case of a market crash, but that is independent of the call, and the only way the call gets exercised is if TSLA goes up.

So having typed all this, I'll post it anyway, but the reality is that I haven't explained anything to either of us. :)

Good point, however I'm not using margin at all. Besides the TSLA shares (which are 100% cash holdings), my other holdings are a mix of calls, and bull call spreads (all of which I have money in the account to pay for).
 
So this morning I tried to sell covered calls against my existing stock position (June 1st week $215s for $4). I have 300 shares and thats basically all of my portfolio, and I tried selling 3 calls against it. The order should have gone through however IB kept on giving me a margin error. I contacted their customer service (got through after about 25 minutes!) and they gave me some BS explaination about how I can't trade TSLA on margin or whatever. Anyway according to this page: Margin, the way that they calculate margin requirements is by taking the requirements for the shares I own already, and adding to that the maintanance requirements for the options I'm trying to buy/sell before letting the order goes through. This makes perfect sense in most cases, but not in the case where I'm selling covered calls. There should be no additional requirements for selling covered calls. However, apparently IB has this as additional requirements.
Has anyone else run into this issue before with other brokers? Can someone explain why the calculations are done the way they are, and why existing positions aren't taken into consideration when doing risk checks?

I have IB cash account and have sold covered calls on TSLA. Are you sure that you were trying to sell, not buy? It happened to me once that I was trying to buy calls but I sold them instead. :redface: My excuse is that it was 2am and I am not sure I was fully awake.
 
So this morning I tried to sell covered calls against my existing stock position (June 1st week $215s for $4). I have 300 shares and thats basically all of my portfolio, and I tried selling 3 calls against it. The order should have gone through however IB kept on giving me a margin error. I contacted their customer service (got through after about 25 minutes!) and they gave me some BS explaination about how I can't trade TSLA on margin or whatever. Anyway according to this page: Margin, the way that they calculate margin requirements is by taking the requirements for the shares I own already, and adding to that the maintanance requirements for the options I'm trying to buy/sell before letting the order goes through. This makes perfect sense in most cases, but not in the case where I'm selling covered calls. There should be no additional requirements for selling covered calls. However, apparently IB has this as additional requirements.
Has anyone else run into this issue before with other brokers? Can someone explain why the calculations are done the way they are, and why existing positions aren't taken into consideration when doing risk checks?

I mostly use optionshouse and I have had problems if I have less than $2000 cash in my account. A lot changes at that point. If I have more than that I don't have any problems doing the occasional day trade. If I have less than that I get warnings. I have also gotten good faith warnings in my wife's ira through options house. I have never gotten them in my taxable account, however it may have something to do with the account value. Not sure though.
 
I'm a noob to options and picked up some June 6 212.5 (five contracts) this morning.

Looks like I'm about to be in the money and my options are up almost 37% already!

I originally bought these hoping for a pop after the shareholders meeting.

Not sure what to do now that TSLA is so close to my strike price.

Strategies???
 
I'm a noob to options and picked up some June 6 212.5 (five contracts) this morning.

Looks like I'm about to be in the money and my options are up almost 37% already!

I originally bought these hoping for a pop after the shareholders meeting.

Not sure what to do now that TSLA is so close to my strike price.

Strategies???
If I end up with lucky options like that I usually wait until they double. Once they double I roll them up so I keep my original investment with half the proceeds and the other half are used to buy a higher strike. Of course weeklies are basically gambling it isn't really investing...
 
why do you consider weeklies gambling?
Well to be precise I consider them basically gambling. You can have an advantage if you have some guess as to a short term catalyst. Then you are playing percentages. Investing in my mind is really buying common stock and holding on. Anyway my point is don't lose all your money on risky options. One surprise catalyst that goes the wrong way means your weeklies are worthless.

Also, when I play options it feels the same to me as when I play craps.
 
I'm a noob to options and picked up some June 6 212.5 (five contracts) this morning.

Looks like I'm about to be in the money and my options are up almost 37% already!

I originally bought these hoping for a pop after the shareholders meeting.

Not sure what to do now that TSLA is so close to my strike price.

Strategies???

I did something very similar. Last night when I read the news about the S&P rating, I was pretty sure that the price would drop (unjustifiably) this morning, so I put in a buy order for $207.5 call options, guessing that the stock would drop to around that point. It actually went a bit lower than I expected, but I did pretty well out of it (currently 32%).

Anyway, the important thing to remember is that the options will get exercised automatically if they are in the money at close on Friday. So unless you have about $110k lying around (or half that if you're using margin) and you actually want the shares, you really have to sell the options in the next 2 days. And in the meantime their "time value" continues to erode away; by the end of trading Friday they will only be worth the difference between the current price and the strike, whereas at the moment they are worth somewhat more. Me, personally, I will plan to sell them sometime tomorrow, hoping for continued upward movement in the stock to outweigh the diminishing time value. I also have a standing sell order for half of them at double the price I paid, in case there is some sudden movement while I'm not able to be watching, much like Uselesslogin describes. If that triggers, any money I make on the other half is cream.

But I must say that having to watch what is happening is stressful. Short term options are not for the weak of heart. I try not to do trades like this unless there is some clear news that I believe is guaranteed to move the market. In this case, the market doesn't get it so I was confident that the stock would recover rapidly. Last time was when Morgan Stanley suddenly doubled their target; I bought a bunch at an inflated price at 6:35am, and tripled the investment by the following morning. But these are the exceptions. Mostly when I gamble short term it works out like any gamble, the house wins.
 
When I buy short-term options (1-4 weeks out), I always have a price target to sell at. So even if it makes that target the next day, I will sell and take the profit (+ more than expected since no time decay loss). If things change, however, like a new catalyst/macro factor, I will adjust my target. The times I have been burned most is when the stock went up quickly and I held hoping for more. Then it dropped and I held hoping it would get back to what I wanted. Then it stayed flat or dropped and I ended up losing out. Those are the most discouraging because you know its your own greed that caused the loss if profits.

I bought puts yesterday before close expecting a pull-back today and sold them at 207. I debated waiting for it to go lower but stuck with my plan and was lucky. I then bought some calls (exp. June 13) and am holding until they reach my target of 215.
 
Well to be precise I consider them basically gambling. You can have an advantage if you have some guess as to a short term catalyst. Then you are playing percentages. Investing in my mind is really buying common stock and holding on. Anyway my point is don't lose all your money on risky options. One surprise catalyst that goes the wrong way means your weeklies are worthless.

Also, when I play options it feels the same to me as when I play craps.


Funny enough, I love craps as well.....So when there is a dip during the week, I like selling OTM puts for just there time value, and just wait a few days for a profit . Or if there is a pop and I think TSLA is over-extended, I'll sell OTM covered call.
Its not bullet proof, but good for short term investing.

I have my leaps as long term investing
 
So I sold some June 20 220 Calls and some June 27 230 Calls against some leaps that I have. How can I roll up and out / or otherwise mitigate these sales? Is it best to wait for a down day and then try the up and out?
I'm in the same boat, I was net short 227.5 calls and 220 calls against shares.

1) I closed the covered call positions at 220 today to reduce my margin debit and cover a margin call.
2) I will wait for another day or two to roll the 227.5's up and out. Tesla moves in bursts, if you can last out this burst and roll up, it should work out ok. I think the trick is to wait till the IV has cooled off, the stock is down, or all time decay has run out (friday). It's really a judgement call at this point, with no clear right answer.
 
On the bolded part, which are you referring to? TSLA stock? Options on TSLA? Both? Options in general?

What people say re: making a lot or losing a lot of $ w/options is kinda true (esp. if you don't know what you're doing), but it depends on how you play it, which underlying securities/stocks, how much of risk you take and your position size.

My main options strat (w/selling OTM naked puts) bring in a little money ($900 to $1000 each month in total) and the w/stocks I use, don't seem incredibly risky. I don't lose any $ most of the time but a lot of buying power is tied up.

However, if I sold puts and then the stocks and/or market dive and are on a prolonged downtrend (or at least one that lasts until my options expire), I could be a world of hurt and rack up big losses.

That's not quite accurate. If the market goes way down, then you don't lose money; you end up with shares at a certain price. If you write puts on Tesla, and you do so at a price you'd be willing to buy the stock anyway, then you'd be no worse off than had you bought the shares outright at that price minus what you got paid for writing the puts. If you are talking about fluctuations for the entire market, you are talking short term and holding shares of a sound company that will do well in the long run puts you in a good position to write covered calls against them. It's less risky than buying long shares outright. You just need to plan on holding the shares until they are profitable, which is fine if you wrote puts because of the merits of the underlying business. Or if you set the target too low, you lose the shares at a price you would have sold at anyway, make money, but possibly not as much as the person who bought the calls. And of course writing covered calls need not be part of the strategy at all unless you see the stock as stagnating for a while. Or it may just be best to roll the written puts, get more money (hopefully) and keep things alive until the price goes up.

For example, when the stock dropped to $120, based on bad press about fires, I wrote puts at $100. I think I took in about $650 per put. The worst case would have been that I would have ended up with shares costing effectively $93.50, and even if the price had been that low or lower, I would have more than recovered my money by now. So it's inherently less risky than buying the shares outright.

At the time I also bought long shares. Technically those were two unrelated positions, but my out of pocket expense was $113.50 for both shares I bought and written puts that expired worthless. When they expired, I wrote puts at $150. It's not a strategy that will make you rich because there is no true growth potential. You get paid what you get paid. Then again, you put no money into it, get money out of it, and the worst case scenario is you end up with long positions at a price you might have paid anyway.

For those who ask why buying short term calls is gambling, it's because you can't predict where the market is going in the short term. People have all sorts of systems, but there's not a single one that has been shown to work. If there had been, we'd all be following that strategy and batting 1000. Strategies involving writing puts and/or covered calls allow you to get extra income, use the strategy as an adjunct to your investing philosophy, and the losses are merely theoretical if you do it right. For covered calls, people talk about losing upside potential, but if you would have been willing to sell shares at that price anyway, then all you lose is the use of the capital for a fixed period, which is something that was already factored in.

People who buy calls (especially short term ones) and buy puts tend to have them die worthless most of the time. They count on offsetting it with ones that pay off big. With your strategy, you are presumably making money on almost all trades, assuming you are going with companies you'd be willing to own for the long term. The bottom line is that if you buy something that expires worthless, there's no recovery. But being able to roll at a profit, end up with shares that have good potential, changing to other strategies that pay you, or whatever combination works for you could only have those theoretical "unlimited" losses if the company goes bankrupt and the shares reach zero. But you can close your position long before then.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny enough, I love craps as well.....So when there is a dip during the week, I like selling OTM puts for just there time value, and just wait a few days for a profit . Or if there is a pop and I think TSLA is over-extended, I'll sell OTM covered call.
Its not bullet proof, but good for short term investing.

It's not investing though. You aren't holding any underlying security with a reasonable expectation of growth. I'm not saying that you won't make money that way, but you have to accept that trading is sometimes investing and sometimes speculating.
 
I don't understand how several people refer to selling covered calls as a hedge if the stock goes down. Sure, you make a few percent of your basis, if even that, but in the dollar amounts I trade in this barely increases my cash position so I stopped doing it period. You might make 3 percent or so of your basis while the stock stays the same or drops 10 %. At best, you make 3% while the stock could go to infinity.

Or, are you able to make more than 3% doing this? I was seeing only 2% about with a price and an expiry I was comfortable with when trading solars and TSLA. With our premise in Alternative Energy investing, I don't see the wisdom in aggressively selling calls even when a stock does go to the roof. If you are that comfortable in your charting/technical ability that predicts a stock drop shouldn't you just buy a put or daytrade?
 
I don't understand how several people refer to selling covered calls as a hedge if the stock goes down. Sure, you make a few percent of your basis, if even that, but in the dollar amounts I trade in this barely increases my cash position so I stopped doing it period. You might make 3 percent or so of your basis while the stock stays the same or drops 10 %. At best, you make 3% while the stock could go to infinity.

Or, are you able to make more than 3% doing this? I was seeing only 2% about with a price and an expiry I was comfortable with when trading solars and TSLA. With our premise in Alternative Energy investing, I don't see the wisdom in aggressively selling calls even when a stock does go to the roof. If you are that comfortable in your charting/technical ability that predicts a stock drop shouldn't you just buy a put or daytrade?

It should bring 3% per month by selling covered calls safely. With that I mean about 4 strikes out with Tesla's volatility. Of the 2 years that I was doing this, there was one time where the stock went up too much that I could've made more by just holding. But 2 years at 3% per month nets you 72% increase. This was what I did when it was around $20 to $40. I have stopped doing anything short term with TSLA stock once it reached $100

So you see, its all about statistics. Now why would you sell any options? I cannot say anything for anyone, but I do it because I usually sell one that's significantly below or above a significant technical level. I also do it for psychological conditioning. As most experienced trader can probably tell you, having time work for you instead of against you help you make less mistakes. Having 100% of your portfolio in a call will make you glued to the screen for the whole trading day. Now with 50/50 mix of sold and bought options, that stress disappears significantly... You do want to enjoy your life somewhat right?
 
It should bring 3% per month by selling covered calls safely. With that I mean about 4 strikes out with Tesla's volatility. Of the 2 years that I was doing this, there was one time where the stock went up too much that I could've made more by just holding. But 2 years at 3% per month nets you 72% increase. This was what I did when it was around $20 to $40. I have stopped doing anything short term with TSLA stock once it reached $100

So you see, its all about statistics. Now why would you sell any options? I cannot say anything for anyone, but I do it because I usually sell one that's significantly below or above a significant technical level. I also do it for psychological conditioning. As most experienced trader can probably tell you, having time work for you instead of against you help you make less mistakes. Having 100% of your portfolio in a call will make you glued to the screen for the whole trading day. Now with 50/50 mix of sold and bought options, that stress disappears significantly... You do want to enjoy your life somewhat right?

Thank you Causalien! I have been reaping option premium by selling long term puts on my favorite stocks, and want to see if there is any feasible way to do with calls. I think what I have been missing is that I have only been watching this strategy this with high volatility stocks and haven't really tested selling calls with low to mid beta stocks. I will keep that in mind for a time when my portfolio contains any low beta stocks :)
 
I thought I was beyond newb stuff, but apparently not.

I sold a PUT yesterday. I have sufficient cash in the account to complete the purchase if it came to that. 14 contracts, so 1400 shares at $10 each = $14000 and I've got $15000 in cash. I got a maintenance call today though saying I was about $9500 short and I'm not grasping why. Their FAQ says the maintenance requirement is "35% of the underlying market price minus out-of-the-money". I'm not entirely sure what that means though as far as the calculation. I've yet to plug in numbers that seem to make things work out, so obviously I'm not understanding the calculation correctly.

The stock (JASO) is at 9.67 and I sold a $10 put, so what's the calculation to figure out what I need for maintenance?

I also have a bunch of purchased LEAPS in a couple other stocks that are certainly worth a goodly amount, but I guess they're not helping the equation?
 
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The leaps won't help at all for offsetting the sold puts, as you need the cash or SMA value to sell these puts. The puts should require something like 6 bucks per contract if i were to just guess at what they would take away from your SMA. The total purchase would withhold about 8400 SMA then. If you have 15000 in cash in the account, you don't need to worry about the requirements, perhaps it's simply that the cash hadn't settled because you sold something to free up the cash and you don't have pattern day trader yet? I would be interested to hear any response from your brokerage.