Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

[GridSpace]

Except that ShotgunF15E's was produced on 3/11 and he's seen the highest yet at 511KW.

Except he hasn't added it to the spreadsheet, so I missed it.

Submision form ... Spreadsheet

 

[GridSpace]

So if I don't submit data to this spreadsheet, we can't see the table? can you open up the table for everyone to see as read-only?

Also, shouldn't we collect data at various SOC, and not just at 90%? the kw and SOC field should be two separate fields. By the way, the description that say "(Max Batt ON)" should say something like " (Max Batt ON and Ready)"

Depends on what's interesting. If it's only Max with Batt On/Ready then we could do 80/85/90/95% and drop the rest.

 

[Andyw2100]

I suspect that you don't actually get additional power from max battery until it registers as ready.

This is not my area of expertise, so perhaps others will chime in, but personally I doubt that.

My understanding is that the reason the extra power can be made with max battery power enabled is that the battery is warmer. Tesla would have no reason to limit the power output just because the max battery temperature threshold had not been reached. A battery warmed almost to the threshold should be able to make almost as much power as one warmed to the threshold, all other things being equal.

 

[sorka]

This is not my area of expertise, so perhaps others will chime in, but personally I doubt that.

My understanding is that the reason the extra power can be made with max battery power enabled is that the battery is warmer. Tesla would have no reason to limit the power output just because the max battery temperature threshold had not been reached. A battery warmed almost to the threshold should be able to make almost as much power as one warmed to the threshold, all other things being equal.

...not only that, but I made more power on a supercharge to 91% without max battery than a slow charge to 91% with max battery and since we already know that supercharging to 85% heats the battery up more than max battery and turning off max battery and running with it ready returns the same results as keeping it on when it's ready pretty much proves that it's temperature related and not whether the setting is actually turned on or not.

 

[sorka]

...not only that, but I made more power on a supercharge to 91% without max battery than a slow charge to 91% with max battery and since we already know that supercharging to 85% heats the battery up more than max battery and turning off max battery and running with it ready returns the same results as keeping it on when it's ready pretty much proves that it's temperature related and not whether the setting is actually turned on or not.

Holy run on sentence. Time for me to take remedial English

 

[GridSpace]

...not only that, but I made more power on a supercharge to 91% without max battery than a slow charge to 91% with max battery and since we already know that supercharging to 85% heats the battery up more than max battery and turning off max battery and running with it ready returns the same results as keeping it on when it's ready pretty much proves that it's temperature related and not whether the setting is actually turned on or not.

that's really interesting. should I capture how the charge was done before the test? ambient temp? what would the options be?

 

[Old Man Mike]

thanks! instead of just showing the highest power (kw) in various SOC, can you show all the data (not just the highest) in various SOC? More useful to see the variance.

We tried that last year and finally ended up doing just the max power points. So often there was data where battery was not up to temp or the tires had slipped or some other less than optimum condition. Using just the max points provided a very consistent series of curves that has held up for many months as the upper limit of performance. Of course the 2016 P90D and new battery pack is going to take a while to find the maximums. In fact, I just eliminated a couple of the lower points and updated the chart:

 

[benjiejr]

...not only that, but I made more power on a supercharge to 91% without max battery than a slow charge to 91% with max battery and since we already know that supercharging to 85% heats the battery up more than max battery and turning off max battery and running with it ready returns the same results as keeping it on when it's ready pretty much proves that it's temperature related and not whether the setting is actually turned on or not.

I was going to say something along these lines. I ran a few tests back to back, with and without max battery on (and ready). I assume max battery just warms the battery to optimal temp and once it's ready, turning it off or on makes no difference. It only makes a difference if you let the battery cool and retest with max battery off. I actually achieved my best power with a max battery off run right after a max battery on (and ready) run. I have a Tesla ranger tech friend who confirms this assumption.

So if we are going to log "max battery off" on the spreadsheet, we might want to clarify that this test should occur with a "cool" battery, not immediately after a warm battery that is "ready". Hope that makes sense.

 

[Old Man Mike]

... I assume max battery just warms the battery to optimal temp and once it's ready, turning it off or on makes no difference.

This appeared to be true in the past but no more. Just look at the difference between Max Batt Pwr ON vs OFF for the 2016 P90D with new battery pack. That is a huge difference which is certainly not from a temperature difference. Also at least one of the big jumps was made immediately after switching from Max Batt Pwr ON to OFF. The battery was at the same temp.

... So if we are going to log "max battery off" on the spreadsheet, we might want to clarify that this test should occur with a "cool" battery, not immediately after a warm battery that is "ready". Hope that makes sense.

Disagree with this unless you just like to see lower than max readings. I believe the more useful info from 2016 testing is the Max power available for a given charge for both Max Batt Power ON and OFF. If you want to see the rate of change in power output going from cold to warm, you can look at my previous graph here (shown as the dashed curve):

Max Power vs State of Charge and Temp

 

[ScottUK]

You are supposed to get the 1500 Amp smart fuse, and some kind of space-grade contact at the battery with your Ludicrous upgrade. It is a hardware upgrade.

Is that true? Thought it was software only on later P90D's as all the hardware was already included?

 

[bhzmark]

The 1ft rollout doesn't apply to the quarter mile time in your time slip.

The one foot rollout is used to give an approximation of a 0-60 time you would get on a drag strip.

GPS devices can be set to allow for the 1ft rollout. Or to not allow for it.

Edmunds is the only U.S. based car magazine, (as well as CU which is not a car mag) that I can think of which does not use rollout when evaluating vehicles.

Thus if you see a 0-60 time in MT or C&D, or in an American automakers specs, then it is usually with rollout.

And will be about .3 seconds quicker than a real 0-60 from a dead standstill.

Some automakers use a 0-60 number using rollout across their product line.

Some use a 0-60 number using rollout for their performance models.

Chevy has done this with one version of their Camaro.

This is done to make a manufacturer's 0-60 times look comparable and competitive to those of his competitors offerings who might be using rollout in their own 0-60 spec. .

However a quarter mile spec you see is what you should hit on your timeslip if you've run the spec.

As I understand it, the 1 foot rollout concept is something used to duplicate shallow (or even regular, but not deep) staging at a dragstrip. A true exact 1/4 mile time from a dead stop will be more than a shallow stage reported 1/4 mile time at a drag strip. The reason is explained in detail here The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature but in short when you shallow stage, you get up to 12 inches of headstart before tripping the timer at a dragstrip when your tire leaves the second staging light. So you aren't starting the 1/4 mile at a total dead stop but rather you have whatever speed you can gather in those first few inches -- with a shallow staged Tesla that can be a lot. So shallow staging at a dragstrip will get an artificially lower 1/4 mile timeslip -- but still a time slip is the most authoritative thing we have so we take it anyway. And we game the system to shallow stage to get a lower time.

I don't know why magazines and car companies use a rollout for 0-60 times. drag strips cant and don't report 0-60 times so that just seems dumb to artificially give rollout advantages to 0-60 times.

 

[Alex(AUS)]

Has anyone spoken to Tesla about this obvious and clearly recorded / documented issue?

Although there may be merit to this new pack actually being a 100kw version, for it to produce a higher voltage (and power on the existing -1500A limitation), it is would need to be charged very close to the 100kw capacity / max allowed voltage which is yet to be enabled / supported if it is indeed a 100. The way to prove this is to show a full to empty drive exceeding -90kw consumed. Also odd to promote the 75 upgrade but skip announcing the 100 at the same time when batteries are in the field. Is it because the yield proved poor and they had to revert to 90s again?

Furthermore, I can see how it would upset numerous customers (both early p85dls, p90dls and very recent p90dls). And, yet another powergate, 10.9 promise is broken. Not to mention that early 90s also do not produce a real range advantage over 85s ...

What makes it worse (if it is all true) is that the link on the tesla order page advertising the 10.9@122 was actually from what now appears to be by a future prototype car not the one the customers were actually buying. Not only did it contain a launch control not available at that time but now seemingly also an entirely different battery to achieve the numbers ... The customer was asked to pay a premium (in each the range update, ludicrous update cost over 85, and a 10.9@122 car ...) without any clear value atm.

Having said all that, as per the first line, this is all likely (hopefully) a storm in a teacup and it will be a coming software update for all ... With the (architected?) despair, I am sure, with a coming software update, it will just make everyone love tesla more.

Just a thought.

Alex

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Although there may be merit to this new pack actually being a 100kw version, for it to produce a higher voltage (and power on the existing -1500A limitation), it is would need to be charged very close to the 100kw capacity / max allowed voltage which is yet to be enabled / supported if it is indeed a 100. The way to prove this is to show a full to empty drive exceeding -90kw consumed. Also odd to promote the 75 upgrade but skip announcing the 100 at the same time when batteries are in the field. Is it because the yield proved poor and they had to revert to 90s again?

Has anyone determined how Tesla goes about limiting the batteries that are software restricted? Do they take the excess capacity off the top or bottom or some combination?

In other words, when someone charges their software limited 60kWh car to 100% Rated Range are they really charging the battery to 80% of its true capacity? Or is that 100% of its capacity and when it shows 0% remaining you really have 20% hidden in there? Or is it 10% off the top and 10% off the bottom?

Mike

 

[Alex(AUS)]

Has anyone determined how Tesla goes about limiting the batteries that are software restricted? Do they take the excess capacity off the top or bottom or some combination?

In other words, when someone charges their software limited 60kWh car to 100% Rated Range are they really charging the battery to 80% of its true capacity? Or is that 100% of its capacity and when it shows 0% remaining you really have 20% hidden in there? Or is it 10% off the top and 10% off the bottom?

Mike

Good point mike. But would that make it impossible to sell the update. Wouldn't everyone work this out then not pay the premium just use the total energy gauge as the true empty?

Or, would tesla hard cut your range (even when there is plenty left) and leave you stranded because you didn't pay for the extra range.

Alex

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Another business opportunity -

"...yes sir Mr. IRanOutaJuice, for a $100 charge to your credit card we can activate a one time extra 35 miles for you over the phone..."



EDIT: I guess it's possible they could "float" the 80% usage - sometimes letting the battery charge to true 100% and other times not. This would all be completely hidden from the user, he/she just sees 0 - 100% of 60 kWh worth of battery.

 

[Alex(AUS)]

Another business opportunity -

"...yes sir Mr. IRanOutaJuice, for a $100 charge to your credit card we can activate a one time extra 35 miles for you over the phone..."



EDIT: I guess it's possible they could "float" the 80% usage - sometimes letting the battery charge to true 100% and other times not. This would all be completely hidden from the user, he/she just sees 0 - 100% of 60 kWh worth of battery.

So sometimes the car would feel like a beast and others not so much ... sometimes it would take a long time to charge (final balance right up the top) and others it would be super quick ... you could never be sure to make a meeting or trip after a planned supercharge may or may not add 40mins.

You would have to have a floating launch mode and max battery power.

It really is complex dealing with a conceptual license to use your own battery to its full capacity ...

 

[P85DEE]

.....
What makes it worse (if it is all true) is that the link on the tesla order page advertising the 10.9@122 was actually from what now appears to be by a future prototype car not the one the customers were actually buying. Not only did it contain a launch control not available at that time but now seemingly also an entirely different battery to achieve the numbers ... The customer was asked to pay a premium (in each the range update, ludicrous update cost over 85, and a 10.9@122 car ...) without any clear value atm

What link on the Tesla order page advertising 10.9 @122??

I've looked at the order page and cannot find this link. Can you post it up?

I have never known Tesla to advertise a trap speed.

The only reference to a launch control that I can recall from back then, was made by Motor Trend, and they may have been referring to max battery.

 

[ernie]

Where's the battery sticker located?

 

[P85DEE]

Where's the battery sticker located?

Passenger side beneath the car near front passenger side tire.

 

[P85DEE]

As I understand it, the 1 foot rollout concept is something used to duplicate shallow (or even regular, but not deep) staging at a dragstrip. A true exact 1/4 mile time from a dead stop will be more than a shallow stage reported 1/4 mile time at a drag strip. The reason is explained in detail here The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature but in short when you shallow stage, you get up to 12 inches of headstart before tripping the timer at a dragstrip when your tire leaves the second staging light. So you aren't starting the 1/4 mile at a total dead stop but rather you have whatever speed you can gather in those first few inches -- with a shallow staged Tesla that can be a lot. So shallow staging at a dragstrip will get an artificially lower 1/4 mile timeslip -- but still a time slip is the most authoritative thing we have so we take it anyway. And we game the system to shallow stage to get a lower time.

I don't know why magazines and car companies use a rollout for 0-60 times. drag strips cant and don't report 0-60 times so that just seems dumb to artificially give rollout advantages to 0-60 times.

Good points.

I think though that what the manufacturers and magazines are trying to do is give you a result that can be produced on a drag strip as opposed to the results obtained from a standing quarter mile or a standing 0-60.

And you are right in that drag strips of course don't measure 0-60.

One point not made in your article that I recall, is that rollout is useful in a drag race because reaction time, while it doesn't effect ET, can and often times does affect the outcome.

Staging, deep or shallow, allows the drivers a grace period and grace distance or forgiveness to react to the lights without red lighting.

So no a drag "race" is not a test of standing quarter mile speed or "time".

A key here is that human beings can only react so fast to that timing light. I forget what it is, but the best drag racers have some of the quickest reflexes of all "athletes".

And since most drag strips are used for drag "racing competition", and reaction time is part of the test of "driver skill", rollout is used.

This is an excellent article on driver reaction time and vehicle reaction time and discusses rollout.

Test Your Reaction Time | Drag Racing Reaction Time Tester From RPM Outlet

So in short, the numbers you see from the manufacturers and some of the magazines, unless they say they are standing quarter mile numbers, are numbers that the car should produce on a drag strip, and taking into account conditions if you're talking an ICE vehicle.

And I see they're using a 1ft rollout in the article.

On a side note, just for fun give these a shot.

Test Your Reaction Time | Drag Racing Reaction Time Tester From RPM Outlet

DragTracker.com