Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

[P85DEE]

I am suggesting the 10.9 and 0-60 figures came from teslas relationship and knowledge of the motortrend test (even though they had not published it yet). And I tend to recall they had previously linked to that review (and in turn the 122 required for given 10.9 ... Which it mostly is).

It would be great if you could point to a link regarding the part in bold above.

Not doubting you, just that our recollections differ. I recall no mention of 122 mph by Tesla, nor Tesla ever linking to Motor Trend's review either before or after the release of the review, which was in late October of 2015. That's better than 3 months after the initial announcement of Ludicrous and 10.9.

Dragtimes P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video

But what you indicated in your earlier post below was what made me pause as I had no recollection of it, and was hoping to see where Tesla had posted a link on their order page advertising 10.9 @122.

...

What makes it worse (if it is all true) is that the link on the tesla order page advertising the 10.9@122 ...

Alex

I could not recall a link on the tesla order page advertising 10.9@122, nor them linking to Motor Trend's article on the P90D.

Knowing drag racing and the numerous published results, it is unlikely the we will see a 10.9 without a power increase of at least 30kw but commonly repeatable would need (surprise surpirse) 50kw ....

Would love to see the OS root guys pull the software of a (sure to be any minute now) 10.9 car.

Alex

The 10.9 matter remains a mystery.

Did Motor Trend do it with a then current production, then current software version of the P90D?

Did Motor Trend "correct" their numbers?

I don't know. But I do see that the submitted times obtained for the car have come down since it's initial release.

 

[JER]

What I'd love to see is some CAN data plotted to show how much of this power gain is coming from reduced voltage sag.

 

[Alex(AUS)]

It would be great if you could point to a link regarding the part in bold above.

Not doubting you, just that our recollections differ. I recall no mention of 122 mph by Tesla, nor Tesla ever linking to Motor Trend's review either before or after the release of the review, which was in late October of 2015. That's better than 3 months after the initial announcement of Ludicrous and 10.9.

Dragtimes P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video

But what you indicated in your earlier post below was what made me pause as I had no recollection of it, and was hoping to see where Tesla had posted a link on their order page advertising 10.9 @122.





The 10.9 matter remains a mystery.

Did Motor Trend do it with a then current production, then current software version of the P90D?

Did Motor Trend "correct" their numbers?

I don't know. But I do see that the submitted times obtained for the car have come down since it's initial release.

I don't have a link. I just feel I remembered that was the case. Maybe some cached version of the page will have it. Perhaps I recall the motortrend test procedure ...

Isn't that odd though? For teslas own tests to show something for them to then link to a third party site / test procedure. Isn't it reasonable they have been referencing the motortrend results all along?

The proof will be in the pudding. I bet the first 10.9 will have 121 to 122mph next to it (alongside the 50kw increase only available in latest cars? Or only a software update for all?)

 

[Alex(AUS)]

I'll be at Mason Dixon Dragway, tomorrow trying for that 10.9. If one nearby is interested in meeting up, I'll be at the Hagerstown Supercharger at 6:30am.

Find Us | Tesla Motors

I predict 10.98@121

 

[P85DEE]

I don't have a link. I just feel I remembered that was the case. Maybe some cached version of the page will have it. Perhaps I recall the motortrend test procedure ...

Isn't that odd though? For teslas own tests to show something for them to then link to a third party site / test procedure. Isn't it reasonable they have been referencing the motortrend results all along?

The proof will be in the pudding. I bet the first 10.9 will have 121 to 122mph next to it (alongside the 50kw increase only available in latest cars? Or only a software update for all?)

...

What makes it worse (if it is all true) is that the link on the tesla order page advertising the 10.9@122 ...

Alex

In all honesty Alex, I don't think that you are going to find it. I think that what has happened here is the same thing that happens to a lot of us. Things start to run together, and you think you remember seeing something in one place, as opposed to another.

Tesla has been mum on the Motor Trend quarter mile results. And for that matter, the C&D quarter mile result too.

Actually it's not odd to me, that they would link to Motor Trend's testing procedures when you take into account the controversy in here awhile back over the 0-60 times and Tesla's decision to use rollout for one car to arrive at 0-60 time, the P85D, but not use rollout for the 85D.

When they did this, it caused another brouhaha in here, because the margin of 0-60 difference between the two cars, was felt by some to have been exaggerated, because rollout was used for the P85D, but not for the 85D.

Tesla was accused of doing this in order to make the difference between the 85D and P85D look greater than it was in order to sell more P85Ds, and was accused of being unethical in doing so

And so people were complaining that they had not gotten the margin of difference from the 85Dthat they paid for.

This was all in the midst of the complaints that the horsepower difference between the 85D and the P85D wasn't what some thought they had paid for, and also in the wake of Tesla's explanation on horsepower motor power in another blog.

Soon thereafter, Tesla explained that Motor Trend's methods using 1ft rollout, (and MT isn't the only one to use rollout) were used to arrive at 0-60 times for the P90D.

So no, to me it's not strange that they would offer an explanation as to how 0-60 times were arrived at for the performance version of the car in the wake of the big controversy in here regarding the actual difference in 0-60 performance between 85D and P85D.

Especially after previously having offered an explanation regarding the horsepower motor power matter.

This had nothing to do with the 10.9.

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding, and if this power increase goes across the board for all P90Ds with Ludicrous, we may never really know just how MT got their results.

Was it done with a then off the rack P90D which was making 456KW, or was it done with one making more power than that?

We may never know.

 

[P85DEE]

I predict 10.98@121

Would be great.

And I also hope that we don't have any controversy in here that 10.98 isn't a 10.9 and should be "rounded up" to an 11.

But somehow I know, that if he fails to run 10.900 that this is liable to come up too.

I'm hoping that he sees 10.89 or better as opposed to 10.98.

 

[St Charles]

Would be great.

And I also hope that we don't have any controversy in here that 10.98 isn't a 10.9 and should be "rounded up" to an 11.

But somehow I know, that if he fails to run 10.900 that this is liable to come up too.

I'm hoping that he sees 10.89 or better as opposed to 10.98.

I'm hoping as well. In the drag racing world i'm used to a 10.99 is still a 10.9.

I'm also hoping I'll get more than a few runs in but this is a test n' tune riding on top of an event. usually that means 3-5 runs total with many hours of waiting in between. Last time I was at the track it was a private rental with unlimited access so I was able to really dial the car in.

 

[P85DEE]

I'm hoping as well. In the drag racing world i'm used to a 10.99 is still a 10.9.

That's because it is.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm also hoping I'll get more than a few runs in but this is a test n' tune riding on top of an event. usually that means 3-5 runs total with many hours of waiting in between. Last time I was at the track it was a private rental with unlimited access so I was able to really dial the car in.

Good luck and be safe.

Where will you be charging the car?

 

[benjiejr]

@St Charles Good luck!!

 

[FlatSix911]

Interesting reading ... Tesla Model X P90D is more powerful than the Model S P90D

"When we first tested the new Model X P90D with Ludicrous mode at the drag strip running an amazing 11.6 @ 116 MPH at Palm Beach International Raceway we were quite surprised how quick and fast it was compared with the Model S P90D Ludicrous running 11.3 @ 116 MPH in a direct heads up race.

Given the extra 600+ pounds the Model X has to carry around over the Model S combined with Tesla’s own spec that both have the same motors, same battery and make the same power (532 HP motor power), the numbers just didn’t add up. While the Model S beats the Model X off the line with 0-60 in 2.8 seconds vs 3.1, after the launch the cars were pretty much even.

Our thoughts were that the Model X was making power to make up for it’s weight penalty and after some more testing we found this to be true. Using the PowerTools App to stream and record live data from the Tesla to our iPhone we recorded the power output of each car from from 0-125 MPH. The max power output in for the Model X was 491 KW and the max for the Model S was just 451 KW. Converting this to HP results in a 55 HP advantage for the Model X over the Model S. Both cars were charged to 100% with Max Battery Power enabled and ready before the runs.

This power difference is pretty significant, especially since Tesla states the Model S P90D Ludicrous runs 10.9 in the 1/4 mile and yet nobody in the year or so the car has been out has been able to run these times at a real drag strip with most runs in the 11.2 -11.3 range. Tesla states the Model X will run the 1/4 mile in 11.7 and we’ve easily beaten that with multiple 11.6 passes. The extra 55HP would most likely put the Model S into the 10’s, so the question is why isn’t the Model S P90D making the power if it’s clear Tesla can make it happen?

To further mix things up there have been reports that recently built Model S P90D cars with Ludicrous and later firmware versions than what our car has have been logging 501 KW or 67HP more than older P90D Ludicrous cars. Will a pending software update equailize things and put the Model S into the 10’s, we sure hope so!

Check out the graph below showing that the Model X is making more power than the S starting at about 40 MPH and screen shots from the PowerTools app showing the max output for each car."

Read more: http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-x-vs-s-power#ixzz4Ce5FtrIx

 

[St Charles]

That's because it is.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Good luck and be safe.

Where will you be charging the car?

There is a supercharger about 5 miles from the track. I plan to charge to 100% and get on the track as soon as I can. I should be able to make 4-5 passes before I drop below 90%

@St Charles Good luck!!

Any event where I can drive home is a good event!

 

[ggnykk]

Is that true? Thought it was software only on later P90D's as all the hardware was already included?

At least it used to be like that when P90DL first came out. Not sure if they have changed recently to software upgrade only.

 

[Alex(AUS)]

In all honesty Alex, I don't think that you are going to find it. I think that what has happened here is the same thing that happens to a lot of us. Things start to run together, and you think you remember seeing something in one place, as opposed to another.

Tesla has been mum on the Motor Trend quarter mile results. And for that matter, the C&D quarter mile result too.

Actually it's not odd to me, that they would link to Motor Trend's testing procedures when you take into account the controversy in here awhile back over the 0-60 times and Tesla's decision to use rollout for one car to arrive at 0-60 time, the P85D, but not use rollout for the 85D.

When they did this, it caused another brouhaha in here, because the margin of 0-60 difference between the two cars, was felt by some to have been exaggerated, because rollout was used for the P85D, but not for the 85D.

Tesla was accused of doing this in order to make the difference between the 85D and P85D look greater than it was in order to sell more P85Ds, and was accused of being unethical in doing so

And so people were complaining that they had not gotten the margin of difference from the 85Dthat they paid for.

This was all in the midst of the complaints that the horsepower difference between the 85D and the P85D wasn't what some thought they had paid for, and also in the wake of Tesla's explanation on horsepower motor power in another blog.

Soon thereafter, Tesla explained that Motor Trend's methods using 1ft rollout, (and MT isn't the only one to use rollout) were used to arrive at 0-60 times for the P90D.

So no, to me it's not strange that they would offer an explanation as to how 0-60 times were arrived at for the performance version of the car in the wake of the big controversy in here regarding the actual difference in 0-60 performance between 85D and P85D.

Especially after previously having offered an explanation regarding the horsepower motor power matter.

This had nothing to do with the 10.9.

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding, and if this power increase goes across the board for all P90Ds with Ludicrous, we may never really know just how MT got their results.

Was it done with a then off the rack P90D which was making 456KW, or was it done with one making more power than that?

We may never know.

The only thing I meant by my statement re being odd referencing motortrend is it somehow linked the 10.9 to motortrend and motortrend practice and indeed in a way endorsed their methods and results (from a standard car?) Otherwise they would document their own methods of arriving to the conclusion ... Why point to motortrend? It plays nicely that motortrend is the only other party to ever run a 10.9 in any way ...

Also the clear friendly nature was on show when they also were privileged to pre-release software with launch control.

 

[ggnykk]

As I understand it, the 1 foot rollout concept is something used to duplicate shallow (or even regular, but not deep) staging at a dragstrip. A true exact 1/4 mile time from a dead stop will be more than a shallow stage reported 1/4 mile time at a drag strip. The reason is explained in detail here The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature but in short when you shallow stage, you get up to 12 inches of headstart before tripping the timer at a dragstrip when your tire leaves the second staging light. So you aren't starting the 1/4 mile at a total dead stop but rather you have whatever speed you can gather in those first few inches -- with a shallow staged Tesla that can be a lot. So shallow staging at a dragstrip will get an artificially lower 1/4 mile timeslip -- but still a time slip is the most authoritative thing we have so we take it anyway. And we game the system to shallow stage to get a lower time.

I don't know why magazines and car companies use a rollout for 0-60 times. drag strips cant and don't report 0-60 times so that just seems dumb to artificially give rollout advantages to 0-60 times.

what is shallow/regular/deep staging? spraying material on drag strip to have more traction?

 

[Alex(AUS)]

At the end of the day we all just desperately want to see all our cars reasonably achieve the advertised and milestone 10 ... It would be awesome and really make a huge leap in performance and ev.

 

[ggnykk]

Good points.

I think though that what the manufacturers and magazines are trying to do is give you a result that can be produced on a drag strip as opposed to the results obtained from a standing quarter mile or a standing 0-60.

And you are right in that drag strips of course don't measure 0-60.

One point not made in your article that I recall, is that rollout is useful in a drag race because reaction time, while it doesn't effect ET, can and often times does affect the outcome.

Staging, deep or shallow, allows the drivers a grace period and grace distance or forgiveness to react to the lights without red lighting.

So no a drag "race" is not a test of standing quarter mile speed or "time".

A key here is that human beings can only react so fast to that timing light. I forget what it is, but the best drag racers have some of the quickest reflexes of all "athletes".

And since most drag strips are used for drag "racing competition", and reaction time is part of the test of "driver skill", rollout is used.

This is an excellent article on driver reaction time and vehicle reaction time and discusses rollout.

Test Your Reaction Time | Drag Racing Reaction Time Tester From RPM Outlet

So in short, the numbers you see from the manufacturers and some of the magazines, unless they say they are standing quarter mile numbers, are numbers that the car should produce on a drag strip, and taking into account conditions if you're talking an ICE vehicle.

And I see they're using a 1ft rollout in the article.

On a side note, just for fun give these a shot.

Test Your Reaction Time | Drag Racing Reaction Time Tester From RPM Outlet

DragTracker.com

I don't think reaction time in any drag strip is related to "skill". I thought most people just start releasing the brake at the last yellow light (right before the green light). So that when the car starts moving, it would roughly match the green light time. A true test of reaction time is when there are no indication on when the green lights will come, and it just pop up suddenly.

Lastly, all drag strip time already accounted for reaction time anyway. Having a super fast or super slow reaction time won't affect your car's time in any shape or form.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The only thing I meant by my statement re being odd referencing motortrend is it somehow linked the 10.9 to motortrend and motortrend practice and indeed in a way endorsed their methods and results (from a standard car?) Otherwise they would document their own methods of arriving to the conclusion ... Why point to motortrend? It plays nicely that motortrend is the only other party to ever run a 10.9 in any way ...

Also the clear friendly nature was on show when they also were privileged to pre-release software with launch control.

I can tell you definitively that the Motor Trend rollout foot note had nothing to do with 10.9. That footnote was added in response to the motor power/roll-out controversy for the P85D along with a change in how Tesla put their horsepower numbers (the subject of the below thread):
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

I know because I participated in the relevant threads, and that footnote matches the wording in Tesla's response to a formal group complaint launched in Norway about the P85D. The link was in the post below but now it is dead, although luckily I had a backup copy. It was in Norwegian, but here is the translated text of the relevant paragraph (including mention of Motor Trend bolded for emphasis):
"Test procedures are also important. At Tesla we use an industry approved deployment method to test acceleration. This method should simulate National Hot Road Association ( NHRA ) industry standards and reflect what the driver can expect in an official drag strip environment. This test method is common in the USA and is used by several car magazines, such as Motor Trend and manufacturers worldwide, including Ford and General Motors."
EU Market Situation and Outlook

The addition was also mentioned here, in the main horsepower controversy thread that extends way before P90D even existed.
[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but when you are at a dragstrip, the roll out is automatically excluded in the first place, so shouldn't be a factor here in regards to the 1/4 mile number.
The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature

The only controversy is when quoting 0-60 numbers. Most US magazines (which is why Motor Trend was mentioned) subtract rollout from their 0-60 numbers.

Motor Trend just happened to have an online article (from 2008) that explicitly mentioned their test procedure subtracts the 1 foot rollout from all their acceleration numbers (not just 1/4 mile), so Tesla just linked that.
Testing, Testing - The Motor Trend Way - Motor Trend

 

[ggnykk]

Hi. With power tools does the 0-60 time include 1 foot rollout? I would assume not. So if I get 3,0 running from a 90 % SOC 434kw 269 ft uphill with my p90d received in late sept 2015 with battery pack 1063792-00-A
Does that mean it is really closer to a 2.7 second 0-60?

what's the point of timing 0-60 mph going uphill?? 0-60 mph test is supposed to be done on a perfectly flat surface.

 

[P85DEE]

The only thing I meant by my statement re being odd referencing motortrend is it somehow linked the 10.9 to motortrend and motortrend practice and indeed in a way endorsed their methods and results (from a standard car?) Otherwise they would document their own methods of arriving to the conclusion ... Why point to motortrend? It plays nicely that motortrend is the only other party to ever run a 10.9 in any way ...

Also the clear friendly nature was on show when they also were privileged to pre-release software with launch control.

The 0-60 times had been reported in Consumer Reports as well, and it was higher than the numbers which Tesla had stated because Consumer Reports, like Edmunds, does not use the 1 foot rollout.

I took Tesla's response as them showing which of the recognized major automotive periodical's methods of arriving at 0-60 were consistent with Tesla's own methods of arriving at 0-60 for the P85D and P90D.

The indication at the bottom of the order page is: "Model S P90D base option acceleration ratings follow Motor Trend's Test Procedure of subtracting the first foot rollout time to represent drag strip performance.

If this is an "endorsement" of Motor Trends methods, well then other manufacturers who use rollout in describing their 0-60 times, some of which are Tesla's competitors, have also "endorsed" this method. A method which is common in the U.S.

If the argument is that Tesla and Motor Trend are in bed with each other when it comes to the performance figures of the P90D, then I'm wondering what motivation Motor Trend would have for backing up Tesla's 10.9 claim.

If the argument is that Motor Trend was given a ringer by Tesla in order to produce that 10.9, well then why not give Car and Driver the same ringer?

 

[P85DEE]

what is shallow/regular/deep staging? spraying material on drag strip to have more traction?

This will get you started.

Traction Compounds - TrackBite

PJ1 TrackBite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia