Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

[TIppy]

no, NSX said it weighs 600 pounds more, I agreed with him, then you went back to a base weight for your calculation on the X and loaded Model. Comparing a loaded Model S to a base Model X?? Base weight diff as per Tesla is 624 pounds.

I'm not denying things when I disagree with you. I'm saying I'm finding different numbers than you are, that you may know to be correct. But how am I to know that your source of information is any more correct than mine. It's nothing personal. That's why I asked where you got your information.

I've looked some more, but haven't been able to find anything official from tesla. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't find it.

Wasn't able to find anything on the weight of the 7th seat. But the removable 3rd row seating on an Escalade ESV was about 100 lbs and a little bit wider than the 2nd row seats on the X. The seats look pretty small, so they probably don't weigh more than 30 lbs. Let me know if you disagree, or care.

S 4936
Driver 185
5121

X 5630
seat 30
Driver 110
5770

140 / 5121 = 0.027
90 / 5770 = 0.016

2.7% increase for S; 1.6% increase for X

Another way to look at it is that you'd have to add 0.027 * 5770 = 156 lbs to the X for the same effect.

So in adding 90 lbs to the X there's no effect, but an additional 66 pounds would get you up to the full 0.05sec. It would actually be a little more because the X is a little slower car.

 

[sorka]

Power output seems to vary with each pack revision now. Rather than V1, V2, V3 cars it may be interesting to track known power output by pack version. I'll dig through the spreadsheet that @GridSpace put together and put some numbers down.

Is there a V1 car now producing 500KW? Sorry if I missed it. I really have been skimming the thread lately (work is just insane right now).

Is there a V3 pack that has been identified?

 

[St Charles]

Is there a V1 car now producing 500KW? Sorry if I missed it. I really have been skimming the thread lately (work is just insane right now).

Is there a V3 pack that has been identified?

The reason I think this is valid is because there seem to be changes with recent battery models. I know my pack can produce a max of 500kW as measured by myself and @ShotgunF15E. There are others who have measured their packs at over 500kW as well as under 500kW. As we discover other packs out there I suspect that we will see even more power variations. We also know that putting a more powerful pack in an older P90DL will yield the expected higher output. Given these factors, I think it's better to track by battery rather than by car.

 

[sorka]

Given these factors, I think it's better to track by battery rather than by car.

I agree. I was must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that power output is now following software upgrades. Did you mean that some cars with V2 batteries weren't producing 500KW until some software upgrade? I could totally buy that.

 

[St Charles]

I agree. I was must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that power output is now following software upgrades. Did you mean that some cars with V2 batteries weren't producing 500KW until some software upgrade? I could totally buy that.

To my knowledge there has never been confirmed, logged proof that additional power was tied in any way to software updates. There is a lot of opinion and circumstantial evidence both ways. I originally thought that I saw a power increase from 2.18.77 to 2.22.50 but I couldn't prove it. The only thing I have to go on is that I have always had 270mi range which would indicate that I have also had addl power.

I do know that there is at least one case where a facelifted Tesla P90DL has an older battery. I truly pity that poor sucker.

 

[P85DEE]

I agree. I was must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that power output is now following software upgrades. Did you mean that some cars with V2 batteries weren't producing 500KW until some software upgrade? I could totally buy that.

Sheesh, I've been speaking of this possibility since days ago.

This was my whole reason for pointing out that it was impossible to say how much power St Charles was making back when he ran 11.1516 while running a prior firmware version, irrespective of the power his car is known to be making now under his current firmware version.

 

[P85DEE]

....I do know that there is at least one case where a facelifted Tesla P90DL has an older battery. I truly pity that poor sucker.

From a performance standpoint, I'd only pity him if his car were completely incapable of running the spec.

However theories abound so I'll throw this out there.

What if the guy with the older battery in the face lifted car runs a 10.9?

Also, what sense would it make for Tesla to put that battery in his face lifted car if it were not capable of allowing the car to run the spec?

 

[St Charles]

From a performance standpoint, I'd only pity him if his car were completely incapable of running the spec.

However theories abound so I'll throw this out there.

What if the guy with the older battery in the face lifted car runs a 10.9?

Also, what sense would it make for Tesla to put that battery in his face lifted car if it were not capable of allowing the car to run the spec?

It's not the 10.9 I would be concerned with. it's the clear measureable power difference that would irritate me. If I took delivery of a brand new P90DL that could be upstaged by an older P90DL built months ago, I'd be pretty mad.

 

[TIppy]

When the cells that make up the pack are manufactured they have a range of capacities. When packs are assembled it's best to use cells whose capacities are close to each other, so that they stay balanced better during charging and discharging. If tesla is sorting their cells by capacity before they use them, that would cause the power to vary from pack to pack more than if they just selected them randomly. I say power, because the power has increased with capacity with these cells. So the different powers people are reporting might just be the natural variation from pack to pack, among version 2 packs for instance.

 

[St Charles]

When the cells that make up the pack are manufactured they have a range of capacities. When packs are assembled it's best to use cells whose capacities are close to each other, so that they stay balanced better during charging and discharging. If tesla is sorting there cells by capacity before they use them, that would cause the power to vary from pack to pack more than if they just selected them randomly. I say power, because the power has increased with capacity with these cells. So the different powers people are reporting might just be the natural variation from pack to pack

Internal resistance can vary as well. It's my understanding that IR is more important to overall pack health. either way, to your point it's important to match cells within a pack.

 

[sorka]

From a performance standpoint, I'd only pity him if his car were completely incapable of running the spec.

However theories abound so I'll throw this out there.

What if the guy with the older battery in the face lifted car runs a 10.9?

That will never happen.

 

[TIppy]

Internal resistance can vary as well. It's my understanding that IR is more important to overall pack health. either way, to your point it's important to match cells within a pack.

You're right matched IR would better match the currents from cell to cell, but the capacities would also have to be similar or you'd discharge the lower capacity cell first. So it's some combination of the two to keep the cells tracking. Although in this case I'm not sure there is a distinction. The increase in current seems to be mirroring the increase in capacity. At a fixed voltage, that means the IR is also mirroring the capacity.

I defer to you about which is more important.

So whatever combination of the two they use to sort the cells, it would cause an increased variation in power from pack to pack versus just selecting them randomly..

 

[P85DEE]

That will never happen.

I've learned to never say never.

 

[sorka]

Internal resistance can vary as well. It's my understanding that IR is more important to overall pack health. either way, to your point it's important to match cells within a pack.

Increasing IR over time is an indication of battery aging. But depending on chemistry initial IR can vary widely. Typically chemistries that result in high capacity result in higher IR and visa versa.

This is an awesome video that anyone who's engaged in Lithium Ion battery discussion should watch:

 

[P85DEE]

It's not the 10.9 I would be concerned with. it's the clear measureable power difference that would irritate me. If I took delivery of a brand new P90DL that could be upstaged by an older P90DL built months ago, I'd be pretty mad.

I'm sure, and many others would be too.

But I think a key question would be "is the older battery an obsolete battery?"

In other words, did they put an obsolete battery into his car?

It could turn out that they were using the older battery packs in the face lifted models up to a certain VIN until they "ran out" of them and started using the next battery pack in the face lifted model.

Similar situations have happens in other vehicles where existing in stock parts were used up on the assembly line before using a newer or revised part.

However that said, I agree with you that were it discovered that an older car was making more power than my newer one, so would I not like it either.

If that gentleman's face lifted P90DL performs to spec, yet it's making less power than the other face lifted P90DL parked next to it, he and many others in his situation wouldn't be happy.

But it could actually come down to was he promised a performance level which his car meets, should it meet it, or was he promised a power level consistent with all of the cars that look like his but were made after his?

 

[TIppy]

Typically chemistries that result in high capacity result in higher IR and visa versa.

I know, but the internal resistance of the version 2 packs went down with the increased capacity. Much less sag.

 

[sorka]

I know, but the internal resistance of the version 2 packs went down with the increased capacity. Much less sag.

Yup and that's not typical. There's been discussion about in the past and I've noted that particular fact earlier in this thread.

Dahn touches on how finding the right additive can decrease IR despited adding Silicon but didn't allude what it was in the one of the batteries they tested that was way out of the normal distribution plot.

 

[TIppy]

Yup and that's not typical. There's been discussion about in the past and I've noted that particular fact earlier in this thread.

Dahn touches on how finding the right additive can decrease IR despited adding Silicon but didn't allude what it was in the one of the batteries they tested that was way out of the normal distribution plot.

The increased internal resistance is caused in part by the fact that the conductivity of silicon is less than that of the graphite it's replacing. I don't know if this is what they're doing, but you can change the conductivity of silicon by doping it with other elements.

 

[TIppy]

Of course the lower sag might not have any thing to do with the cells themselves. In Jason Hughes' disassembled pack you can see some fairly fine, long wires connecting the cells to the common buss.
These are fuse elements as another level of protection for the cells from over current. The wires are silver in color and as they have to hold up to high heat, they might be stainless steel. These wires could have 10 or so milliohms of resistance. A reduction of 10 milliohms in these wires could account for the 20 volts less sag we're seeing.

Instead of the wires, they could use a wide ribbon with just a narrowing over a short section of the total length. This would allow it to fuse at the narrowing and decrease the overall resistance.

 

[_TTT_]

To my knowledge there has never been confirmed, logged proof that additional power was tied in any way to software updates. There is a lot of opinion and circumstantial evidence both ways. I originally thought that I saw a power increase from 2.18.77 to 2.22.50 but I couldn't prove it. The only thing I have to go on is that I have always had 270mi range which would indicate that I have also had addl power.

I do know that there is at least one case where a facelifted Tesla P90DL has an older battery. I truly pity that poor sucker.

What is the range with the old battery pack? I have a facelifted model with the 1071941-00-C battery and my range has always been 275 miles at 100%. Are you saying this indicates increased power? I was under the impression that the facelifted model might say 275 miles of range because of other things such as aero improvements.