NHTSA compels Tesla to recall FSD feature

[stopcrazypp]

Has anyone asked who is responsible for tickets that would be given because the car is doing rolling stops or doing things that can result in a ticket? If the car is programmed to do that, would it actually be responsibility of Tesla to pay for the ticket if they are knowingly implementing an illegal maneuver?

It's not, same way that speeding with CC on, or the car running a red light (like reported in the news) is not the responsibility of Tesla. As long as the car remains L2, the legal responsibility is on the driver.

When L3 comes out, the various jurisdictions will have to figure out how to "ticket" the manufacturers, but we aren't there yet.

 

[ATPMSD]

It's not, same way that speeding with CC on, or the car running a red light (like reported in the news) is not the responsibility of Tesla. As long as the car remains L2, the legal responsibility is on the driver.

When L3 comes out, the various jurisdictions will have to figure out how to "ticket" the manufacturers, but we aren't there yet.

Unlikely, even at L4 “…a human still has the option to manually override.”

 

[stopcrazypp]

Unlikely, every at L4 “…a human still has the option to manually override.”

With L3, when it is operating in autonomous mode, the responsibility is on the manufacturer. The person in the seat is not required to immediately take over.

In L4, no driver is required in the driver's seat, so the officer will have no one to ticket. There will also be cars designed without any sort of control in the car.

 

[Big Dog]

Ive been on every version since 10.2 and since they added the aggressive setting, I’ve never seen it roll at more than 1-2mph.

I really wish they didn’t advertise the rolling stops. Once the media outlets picked it up, it was just a matter of time before NHTSA came knocking. They should at least leave it for us Californians. California Rolls are basically the unspoken law here

Perhaps true, but also easy money for the local communities, as cops will ticket you every time.

 

[ATPMSD]

With L3, when it is opening autonomous mode, the responsibility is on the manufacturer. The person in the seat is not required to immediately take over.

In L4, no driver is required in the driver's seat, so the officer will have no one to ticket. There will also be cars designed without any sort of control in the car.

Incorrect at L3: …a human driver must be present, alert, and able to take control of the vehicle at any time, especially in the case of an emergency due to system failure.

And sort of for L4. At L4 “…a human still has the option to manually override” so stating that the car does not have any controls is incorrect. Still, we are a long way from this level and there is a conflict between this statement and another statement that automated taxis on defined routes will operate at L4. Time will tell, so just speculation for now.

 

[j0shm1lls]

I went out during lunch and let the car do some rolling stops just to stick it to the man...

 

[Big Dog]

It's not a gray area in California, the cops can write you a ticket for going 1 mph over the limit, California has a strict speed limit, yet few people follow it. The mechanism allowing this behavior is the same as for rolling stops: enforcement is lax because of so many people doing the same thing.

Uh, no. California also has a Basic Speed Law. If the posted speed is say, 35 mph, but yet everyone drives 45+ mph (so driving 35 will impede traffic), the 35 mph driver could be cited. And you'll find that communities have to adjust speed limits on their streets upward as a result.

Section 7: Laws and Rules of the Road - California DMV

Traffic Control When at or approaching traffic signals or signs, yield to pedestrians, bicyclists, and other nearby vehicles that may have the right-of-way. See Right of Way Rules: Who Goes First, in this section. Traffic Signals Solid Red Light A red traffic signal light means STOP. You can...

www.dmv.ca.gov

But back to the rolling stops: whoever approved that programming should be fired since it is just so stupid.

 

[momo3605]

Beautiful U-turns even in FSD beta 8:

My car since 10.2 never makes u-turns, even if the directions say to do so. Was it removed before public beta?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Uh, no. California also has a Basic Speed Law. If the posted speed is say, 35 mph, but yet everyone drives 45+ mph (so driving 35 will impede traffic), the 35 mph driver could be cited. And you'll find that communities have to adjust speed limits on their streets upward as a result.

Section 7: Laws and Rules of the Road - California DMV

Traffic Control When at or approaching traffic signals or signs, yield to pedestrians, bicyclists, and other nearby vehicles that may have the right-of-way. See Right of Way Rules: Who Goes First, in this section. Traffic Signals Solid Red Light A red traffic signal light means STOP. You can...

www.dmv.ca.gov

Nope, basic speed law only sets an even lower limit:
Says right in your link: "California’s “Basic Speed Law” means that you may never drive faster than is safe for current conditions."
That statement doesn't give you a right to driver faster than the limit, only that in certain circumstances you may be required to drive slower (all the examples given are talking about needing to drive slower, not faster).

It never gives you an exception to exceed the posted speed limit, it even makes a note: "Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on a two-lane undivided highway and for vehicles towing trailers."

There are some states that do give an explicit tolerance and allows you to go over the limit for certain reasons (like passing a vehicle), but California is not one of them.

MIT has a good overview of the speed laws of various states. You will notice most states are even stricter than California, they have a statewide absolute limit, while California allows limits higher than the general 55/65 mph depending on the road, and it'll be posted if it does. Only 3 states (Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, marked in green) explicitly allow you to drive faster than the speed limit if you can prove that it was safe for the conditions.
State Traffic and Speed Laws

Yes communities do adjust their limits upward, but you'll still get a ticket before the limits were adjusted. The car letting you set the speed above posted limit (sometimes well above, especially in TACC) is explicitly allowing you do something "illegal", just like "rolling stops".

 

[eli_]

Uh, no. California also has a Basic Speed Law. If the posted speed is say, 35 mph, but yet everyone drives 45+ mph (so driving 35 will impede traffic), the 35 mph driver could be cited. And you'll find that communities have to adjust speed limits on their streets upward as a result.

Section 7: Laws and Rules of the Road - California DMV

Traffic Control When at or approaching traffic signals or signs, yield to pedestrians, bicyclists, and other nearby vehicles that may have the right-of-way. See Right of Way Rules: Who Goes First, in this section. Traffic Signals Solid Red Light A red traffic signal light means STOP. You can...

www.dmv.ca.gov

But back to the rolling stops: whoever approved that programming should be fired since it is just so stupid.

No they can't, it's the opposite, it means you can be ticketed for driving under the speed limit.

 

[Bouba]

Police in France don’t like rolling stops...any stop that has a convenient place for a police car to hide are very popular for cops.

 

[vandango33]

All,

I just opened up a petition to be signed by 60,000 FSD Beta users (and others) to help tell NHTSA that we want to keep the rolling stops feature! I wrote a piece on this in the petition. Please check it out and show some support!! The video on the the petition doesn't show a traditional 4 way intersection rolling stop, but I think everyone gets the point!

Sign the Petition

 

[Mardak]

Some people argue that these driver assist and more autonomous features should follow all laws. I wonder how soon FSD Beta will automatically honk as some states have laws like… "The driver of a vehicle overtaking another vehicle proceeding in the same direction shall give a timely, audible signal…"

Some states even require honking at pedestrians and cyclists, which I would think most people would find surprising and annoying… so FSD Beta not doing so would be illegal!

 

[dckiwi]

Next up - NHTSA prohibits AP/FSD from driving even one mile per hour over the speed limit.

Autonomous vehicles slavishly following the letter of every driving law will quickly expose how untenable some of these laws are. As a result, regulators will either have to allow AVs to bend the rules like humans, or the laws will be changed to reflect actual practice. Either outcome is fine.

Humans have been bending these rules forevevr, and law enforcement has turned a blind eye in cases where the infraction is just common sense (such as a california stop with excellent visibility and no other vehicles in sight).

I remember on I-495 a group of drivers would occasionally drive 55 (the posted speed limit) in all lanes of traffic to protest the unrealistic limit. It brought traffic to a halt.

 

[SVMike]

Since we are talking about FSD not following traffic laws...
I'm in the Bay Area (which Tesla should know well). I have HOV (car pool) stickers, but they expired a month ago.
I realized this after a week or so and went into the settings and disabled the "use HOV lanes" setting.
However, FSD continues to do lane changes into the right hand HOV lanes about a mile before a right turn.
Lane changing to the left overrides this, but in 10 seconds or so it wants to change back to the right.
The law says (something like) you can move into the HOV lane (without 2 people or sticker) only one traffic light (or street?) before your turn

FSD seems to be very aggressive in getting in the proper lane very early...since it is pretty bad at making eye contact and getting another driver to let you in.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Incorrect at L3: …a human driver must be present, alert, and able to take control of the vehicle at any time, especially in the case of an emergency due to system failure.

I'm using the SAE L3 definition, not sure which one you are using. Yes, in SAE L3 you can't fall asleep, but L3 means the car must allow a buffer time (that is the critical difference):
Page 9 on J3016 (202104)
"At Level 3, an ADS is capable of continuing to perform the DDT for at least several seconds after providing the fallback-ready user with a request to intervene. The DDT fallback-ready user is then expected to resume manual vehicle operation, or to achieve a minimal risk condition if s/he determines it to be necessary."
SAE MOBILUS
During this time period, the "driver" is not responsible for the control of the vehicle. It is during this time period (and also when there is no "request to intervene" and car is in control) where the L3 system may perform something "illegal" and the manufacturer may end up liable.

In L2, this is explicitly different, at no time is the driver not responsible for the control of the vehicle. Thus the manufacturer isn't liable (outside of the regular defect claims that can happen with any car).

And sort of for L4. At L4 “…a human still has the option to manually override” so stating that the car does not have any controls is incorrect. Still, we are a long way from this level and there is a conflict between this statement and another statement that automated taxis on defined routes will operate at L4. Time will tell, so just speculation for now.

You have L4 cars like these that don't allow you to override whatever it is doing:
Exclusive look at Cruise’s first driverless car without a steering wheel or pedals
Waymo Unveils Robotaxi With No Steering Wheel, Pedals

SAE L4 does not require controls in the car (there are some definitions that have this as a differentiating feature between L4 and L5, but not SAE's and SAE's seems to be the industry's most comprehensive and generally accepted definition).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Since we are talking about FSD not following traffic laws...
I'm in the Bay Area (which Tesla should know well). I have HOV (car pool) stickers, but they expired a month ago.
I realized this after a week or so and went into the settings and disabled the "use HOV lanes" setting.
However, FSD continues to do lane changes into the right hand HOV lanes about a mile before a right turn.
Lane changing to the left overrides this, but in 10 seconds or so it wants to change back to the right.
The law says (something like) you can move into the HOV lane (without 2 people or sticker) only one traffic light (or street?) before your turn

FSD seems to be very aggressive in getting in the proper lane very early...since it is pretty bad at making eye contact and getting another driver to let you in.

I've seen in the earlier FSD videos where it waits until the last minute to make the proper lane change and then end up missing the turn, so getting into the proper lane very early is definitely the safest move.

Even for a human driving, it's the safest move. I see plenty of people make all sorts of dangerous moves when they are in the wrong lane for their route and they realize it in the last minute.

 

[PhantomX]

It's not, same way that speeding with CC on, or the car running a red light (like reported in the news) is not the responsibility of Tesla. As long as the car remains L2, the legal responsibility is on the driver.

When L3 comes out, the various jurisdictions will have to figure out how to "ticket" the manufacturers, but we aren't there yet.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the difference is that CC doesn't default to make you speed. For example, if you set your TACC or CC at posted speed limit, it'll happily follow that. However, it sounds like FSD Beta (and I don't have it in my Model 3) will always try to roll through stop signs. Over here in my neighborhood, that's an automatic ticket regardless how slow you roll through the stop signs. Like some said, it's an easy ticket for police, though I am glad they are doing it because there have been too many close calls between cars and pedestrians because of rolling stops.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the difference is that CC doesn't default to make you speed. For example, if you set your TACC or CC at posted speed limit, it'll happily follow that. However, it sounds like FSD Beta (and I don't have it in my Model 3) will always try to roll through stop signs.

It doesn't do it by default, it is opt-in and there are very narrow circumstances that it will even try that. This was detailed in another post:
NHTSA compels Tesla to recall FSD feature

Over here in my neighborhood, that's an automatic ticket regardless how slow you roll through the stop signs. Like some said, it's an easy ticket for police, though I am glad they are doing it because there have been too many close calls between cars and pedestrians because of rolling stops.

If you live in such a neighborhood, then it's a simple matter to disable the setting. Same way you can do with CC/ACC/AP if you drive past a known speed trap. The question is more if NHTSA should enforce this from the top and not even allow users the option in the first place (even in places where it's not enforced). Rolling stops perhaps is something that most people don't care much about so can shrug off, but again, speeding is something NHTSA can easily pull the same thing. I don't think most people will be able to shrug that off. Hopefully, this is just a one-off/rare thing due to the media attention, and does not extend to other aspects (especially some of the more inane laws that others pointed out).

 

[JulienW]

....I remember on I-495 a group of drivers would occasionally drive 55 (the posted speed limit) in all lanes of traffic to protest the unrealistic limit. It brought traffic to a halt.

Here is in Atlanta on I-285 Perimeter/Beltline in 2007.