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No EV company will deploy their own charging network

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by zambono, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. zambono

    zambono Member

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    I don't see any new electric vehicle company deploying their own fast chargers. They will all jump on whichever is the accepted standard, seems like CCS. The good will be that they eventually should be easy to find, the bad will be you'll be stuck waiting on earlier EV's that will take hours to top off.

    Be thankful for the Tesla Superchargers, their expansion, and tweaks to keep drivers moving
     
  2. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

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    The charging network does seem like the barrier to entry for any other large scale long distance EV production car. If there's any justification for Tesla's high stock price, it's the competitive advantage from having a super charging network in place. It'd be a huge commitment, beyond what another EV startup might be capable of... but if a major cash rich automaker decides to go full electric, I could see them having the resources. But right now I don't see the will from any ICE maker to switch their entire business model over to EV.
     
  3. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    A quick look at the potential competitors shows none of them have the perspective to understand the competitive advantage and sales advantage of a widespread network. Frankly, Tesla probably made the initial move from desperation but...

    A quick review suggests the typical distances driven by Model S and X drivers are far greater than those for most comparable ICE. A single case is not valid but.. anyway, I have driven 28,000 miles during two years of ownership during which I have been in the same country as my car for seven months. That is, 28,000 miles in seven months. Noting the number of Model S reporting more than 100,000 miles suggests even more that Superchargers have facilitated owners as Tesla-trippers.

    The first thing non-Tesla types ask about is charging. The Superchargers leave them in awe. If the competitors had any clue they'd take a very different approach than they now do.
     
  4. CT200h

    CT200h Member

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    The lead and advantage Tesla has is significant. What's even more significant is the commitment to evs's capable of Long distance travel and the understanding of what it takes to provide that to customers. No other mfr will have a competive system any time in the next 10 years in my opinion. It could be 15 or more years.
    A lead like they have is hard to overcome. Still they need to nourish and protect the network and they have shown that with the recent announcement of idle fees.
    Other mfrs have made some bold claims about charging speeds ,(Audi) what they leave out is an explanation of a network of multi charger locations ( 6 to 12 chargers per location plus) .
    It shows they lack understanding of the issue and or an inability to commit to the proper solution.
     
  5. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    BTW, the title is incorrect because Tesla has already done just that.
     
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  6. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    It seems funny that people are still discussing fast changing standards when someone has already designed, tested and installed in large quantities a proper fast charging infrastructure...... Patents are open so there is no cost to include that company's socket in your BeV design. The only issue stopping the proven solution from becoming a standard is to work with its inventor/implementer to make it one :)
     
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  7. James Anders

    James Anders Member

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    One easy possibility for an existing car company would be to put charging stations at their dealerships. Ford, for example has over 3,000 dealers.
     
  8. Enadler

    Enadler Member

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    True but oftentimes dealerships are not located appropriately for long distance travel.
     
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  9. James Anders

    James Anders Member

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    Sure. But it's low hanging fruit that could be done with a minimum of red tape and effort. Even if it's only 1,500 dealers it would be huge.
     
  10. CT200h

    CT200h Member

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    I work at dealer and own several EV , can't think of a worse place for manufacturers to put chargers than dealerships. Ok so they need to have them at dealerships but that should not be a primary place for owners to plan to charge up. More for cars that are in stock and service , sales, maybe the occasional charge by a traveling customer.
    Remember there is a Lack of control as these are franchises, lack of access constantly blocked, turf issues( you can't charge that car here you didn't buy it here) awful.
     
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  11. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    Just consider the locations where Superchargers are colocated with Service centers/showrooms. Blue Ash, OH and Toronto, ON come to mind. They are usually congested with loaners, service center cars etc. I have managed to charge at these locations, but never without a slight hassle. Similarly I have used CHAdeMO at Nissan dealers a few times. They have always been gracious and helpful (I have tried to help them sell Leaf) but it still is a hassle. Above all sales/service locations are rarely contiguous to optimal travel patterns. I cannot name one that is convenient..
     
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  12. tomas

    tomas Only partially psycho

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    Yes, all true. And, from my discussion with a number of CA VW dealers about why they do not carry/service eGolf: VW requires them to put in chargers at their expense. Many of them are tight both $ and space. Add to that the probability that rural dealers - who are needed most for a long distance travel charging network - will be among the last to have demand for EVs... it's attractive given the map, but not once all the facts are factored in.
     
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  13. wws

    wws Member

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    In fact GM is doing the same as VW. Dealers carrying Bolt EV are required to have a CCS charger in their service area. Up to the individual dealers whether they buy additional units for customer or traveler use. Not much of a 'network'. Just points on the map.
     
  14. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    I have always considered the Supercharger kind of temporary. I can not see how it would be in the long-term interests of automotive manufacturers to run a charging network, but I can see how it would in the short to medium-term interests of a disruptive automotive manufacturer to build such a network as an obstacle remover.

    I'm not saying the Superchargers will go away any time soon - or perhaps even ever - but I would not be surprised if there comes a day they will be just one charging network amongst many, serving a wide array of car types, and perhaps spun-off into its own company or sold somewhere where running a charging network is their business. While I see Tesla perhaps strategically keeping their sales network their own, the same may not apply to their charging network IMO - unless it is a premium experience they want to keep...

    That said, in the meanwhile there might still be a need for automotive manufacturers beyond Tesla to put skin into this game - and I agree they don't seem very willing to. The biggest effort seems to be punitive/compensatory: Volkswagen post-dieselgate in the U.S. It may be at this rate third-party CCS networks grow fast enough, so that other manufacturers won't have to go the Tesla route.

    Of course, in the meanwhile, on one hand this situation does give Tesla added leverage - while hampering EV adoption on the other.
     
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  15. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    The real problem will come with EV Pickups and SUVs towing heavy, and EV motorhomes.

    We will need 350kW or higher every 100 miles, everywhere. Not just highways, they have to extend to recreational areas, foreign countries, dirt roads, etc.

    Currently, there is no significant issue since heavy hauling, recreational areas, foreign travel, are all covered with ICE or EREV.

    Even interstate travel is cheaply and quickly done by jet airplane transportation.

    The real challenge will be to have a grid that allows a 250 mile DCFC combat radius from urban areas. This will cover nearly all travel.
     
  16. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    ...is the pride of the CEOs of other auto companies. They cannot stomach the idea of their cars getting a charge from a location that is labeled "TESLA".

    It will be a decade before there are significant numbers of EV pickups and motor homes on the roads and likely even longer before EVs will be capable of towing really heavy trailers (as you know some X owners are towing light trailers right now and doing fine). During that decade Tesla will continue to build out the Supercharger network. It will be ready for the scenario you describe.
     
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  17. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    CEOs and marketing departments.

    I can imagine that a Bolt owner sitting in a supercharger stall next to a bunch of model S/X/3s would be spending a lot of time contemplating how they could finagle a way into a Tesla. And they'd be a sitting duck for sales pitches from Tesla owners. It's not something that GM wants to encourage. Now, if GM produced something that was as/good or better than what comes out of Fremont, then you'd have a different situation.
     
  18. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    In order to be offended by this idea they'd need to think about it. ICE executives do not think about 'refueling' at all. Gasoline stations are ubiquitous the world over. They haven't thought about the issue at all until very recently. It will take another couple fo years before they all really understand viscerally what the charging issue really is. An academic understadning just is not good enough. Further, almost none of them understand that BEV owners who have long range vehicles actually like making road trips with them. GM might begin to understand the issue with the Bolt, but I'd not bet on quick understanding from that crowd.
     
  19. Beryl

    Beryl Member

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    The word "other" needs to be added. Since I'm living what I've previously called "an SC anorexic region", I've been delighted with progress Tesla has made in the last year. I can now reach everywhere I want to go in this country. That was no small feat and I applaud Tesla for everything they are doing to keep us moving and reduce range anxiety.
    So true. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of new buyers of long-range EVs will own no ICE vehicles for road trips at all.

    I do hope GM catches on quickly though. Based on their recent announcement to add some AP features to the Bolt, I have a glimmer of hope. They appear to be listening to the consumers.
     
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  20. hill

    hill Member

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    Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Mitsu, even Toyota are all CHAdeMO members (even the new prius plugin, the 'prime' have it in japan) and there are WAY more CHAdeMO's than the frankenplugs by what - maybe a factor of 50? That huge ratio difference .... isn't that the reason musk made a CHAdeMO adapter for Tesla? Who cares if virtually non-existent frankenplugs are preferred by more car manufacturers, at least until - or 'if' the builders get on board & ramp up cars that can actually use 'em - imo.
    .
     
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