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Now that Ford intends to almost stop making cars...

Discussion in 'Cars and Transportation' started by azred, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. azred

    azred Active Member

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    are they depending on Trump to save them from future mpg fleet requirements — or are their other vehicles exempt anyway? If Ford succeeds, I assume GM isn’t far behind.

    Other than Tesla, I guess this news suggests most cars in the future may come from Asia and American made vehicles will gas guzzle along 1960’s style. Are we really that stupid?
     
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  2. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    What in the world are you referring to?
     
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  3. seattlite2004

    seattlite2004 Active Member

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    Ford is just stopping production on sedans that are not selling. However, they are still making Trucks, SUVs, CUVs...just no more sedans.
     
  4. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Contrary to the internet, CAFE requirements are not being removed in the morning.
    Contrary to the internet, Ford is having trouble finding Americans who want to buy sedans or coupes. It's industry wide.
    Contrary to the internet, nobody is buying 'green' cars in significant numbers yet.
    Contrary to the internet, the POTUS doesn't buy most the motor vehicles in the US.
    Contrary to the internet, you can't sell cars if you don't have buyers.

    In 2012, Toyota sold a record 250k Priuses in North America. This was because there were 250k buyers. Not because the POTUS at the time purchased them himself.

    That number dropped every year since 2012, with the half the buyers missing by about 2016.5. Last year was 115k and still falling.

    Priuses are made by the same company with the thirstiest pickup in the US, and the thirstiest SUV under $100,000. They are called Toyota, which is based in Japan, which is considered part of Asia.

    All the Priuses sold in North American ever since their release have saved less fuel than a 1 mpg rise in the F-150 fleet.
    The Prius is noted to be the Greenest Car when Americans are polled, and the most widely recognized EV model by Americans, even though it's never been an EV.
    But the Prius simply doesn't sell in the US. It is sold here to allow their pickups and SUVs to be sold.

    Truth?

    The 2001 F150 was 15mpg combined EPA and the 2018 is 21mpg combined EPA. Nearly a 50% improvement.

    Toyota? Their 2018 Tundra is 16mpg with the smallest engine. No better than 17 year old trucks. So now you know why the Prius exists, and why it is and was a piss poor effort at improving CAFE numbers.
     
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  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    #5 cwerdna, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    ^^^^
    Toyota bashing aside, I'd argue MANY (the majority?) folks who drive those guzzler trucks and SUVs have no valid reason (no actual need the vast majority of the time) to have them and are huge wasters of a non-renewable resource to begin with. 21 mpg combined is TERRIBLE if one only needs to drive themselves to and from work. Since you're the GM fanboy, where were GM's high mpg hybrids from 2001 to 2009? How about now? (See non-plugin hybrids under March 2018 Sales Dashboard - HybridCars.com).

    Current gen Prius achieves 52 mpg, while the Eco version is 56 mpg. I'm amazed that the over 200 hp Camry Hybrid now also achieves 52 mpg combined: Compare Side-by-Side.

    That said, Ford announces $1.7B quarterly profit, deep cuts to car lineup is interesting.
    Unfortunately, https://one.nhtsa.gov/cafe_pic/CAFE_PIC_home.htm seems broken right now so I can't look at current reports but the projected values for the 3 fleets (DP, IP and LT) for Toyota are higher for MY 2016 and 2017 at https://one.nhtsa.gov/CAFE_PIC/MY 2016 and 2017 Projected Fuel Economy Performance Report Final.pdf than GM. The same holds true for Toyota vs. Ford except for Ford's MY 2017 IP fleet,.

    For those who haven't looked at these before, DP = Domestic Passenger cars, IP = Imported Passenger cars and LT = "light" trucks, which includes (below a certain GVWR) most pickups, SUVs, small vans, minivans, most "crossovers", etc.

    https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/performance-summary-report-12152014-v2.pdf is an example of an older document.
     
  6. azred

    azred Active Member

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    #6 azred, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
    It's a story all over fake news but maybe Fox and Friends are ignoring it.:D
     
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  7. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

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  8. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    The 'you don't need a truck' argument applies to many things in your life. If you aren't making children, you don't 'need' sex. You don't need a >20" TV. You don't need a >1600 sqft house. Etc, Etc. You don't even 'need' a car in most urban regions. But you'd be surprised how many folk 'need' a truck format when it comes to cars. Modern trucks tend to be 5 seat sedans.

    The distance you drive to work is pretty important when it comes to fuel consumption. Many of those with long commutes do not use a pickup as their sole vehicles. A Prius driver who lives 30 miles from work is not as green a F150 driver who works 10 miles away.

    • GMs first hybrids were in the mid 2000's. By then the well was already poisoned. See FOH further down the essay.
    • GM has always spent quite a bit on advanced powertrain research and more importantly, development. The first decade of the 21st century is no exception.
    • Beginning in the mid 1990's GM focused on digital engine controls until they became the world's leader by a wide margin. This cleaned the air more than the Priuses did because it worked on all platforms, not just econoboxes. The bigger the vehicle the bigger the gains. In fact, it is the most stolen of all ICE technologies today. GM could detect differences in performance between cylinders and adjust accordingly to optimize emissions and mileage. Without individual O2 sensors or cylinder pressure sensors. Fkg magic, pure magic. Even knowing how GM could pull that off didn't help the competition, they couldn't make it work for over a decade, and still aren't fully caught up yet.
    • They developed and released a high technology diesel towing driveline that can get over 20 mpg highway unladen, and 15 mpg towing a 6,000 lb car trailer, and 12 mpg towing a 14,000lb car trailer.
    • They developed a 'plug and play' 4.5L V8 reverse induction, sans intake manifold, state-of-the art diesel that died due to a faked report by a CARB 'scientist' who was actually a fraud, and the financial downturn in 2009. That 4.5 was going to create full-sized cars, SUVs, and trucks with 30 mpg or higher with great towing ability.
    • Finally they worked on the Voltec drivetrain and FCEV technology that was not released that decade. Some could argue the Voltec remains the world's most sophisticated green drivetrain since it's better behaved than most 'non-green' powertrains in real world driving, and does not suffer from Hybrid Disease. You put the spurs to it and it jumps. It does NOT reply with "Uh, what did you want me to do with that pedal pressure? Are you in a hurry, or can I kick back for awhile, since Grey's Anatomy is on."

    GM still can't get people to buy hybrid pickups, but they have not given up since their first hybrid pickup in 2004. 2018's poor hybrid sales are no exception. While the 355HP V8 hybrid gets 24mpg highway / 18mpg city and has 383 ftlb of towing grunt, people won't buy it. Fear Of Hybrids is a very real thing. Anybody who drove an early Insight or Prius were susceptible to catching this deadly syndrome: "WHAT A POS!!! Why Lord did you allow this to happen? Give us frogs from the sky or locusts, PLEASE!!" The term Hybrid became synonymous with lousy performance, tragic handling, and sky high pricing, not to mention the irrational fear of having enough electricity on board to kill a family of four in a few seconds.

    The Prius did more damage to the image of green technologies than Chernobyl. Green car == crappy car. It hurt electric cars as well, since Toyota's marketing seemed make folk think it was EV, either on accident (cough... bs... cough) or deliberate misdirection to portray an image that they were the leaders in EVs.

    GM's Malibu hybrid is a great car. But FOH will keep anyone but the most ardent eco-nazi from test driving one.

    I will admit I was and am a SINNER!!! But I was SAVED Lordy, by of all things a stupid EV conversion called the CODA. I had FOH bad, and EVs were just more expensive hybrids in my eyes. But I was invited to melt the tires off one (literally) at a SCCA Solo2 competition. HEY!! That was fun. "Can I have some more, sir?" I'm used to over 400hp and would not consider anything with less power. When you can get >400HP x 175+ mph x 11.x second ETs for 29 mpg at 70 mph, why bother with crappy cars?

    But that early EV effort changed my mind about the future of EV technology. I no longer have nightmares about being swallowed by a green slug.
     
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  9. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    Was it really necessary to make a snarky political comment here?

    I don't watch TV news and I didn't see any Ford story in the LA times, nor on NBC Online, nor on NPR online until today.
     
  10. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    This. There is very little coverage of Ford's changing lineup anywhere but auto-centric news sources.

    It makes me embarrassed to be seen in a green car. I imagine some of my newer neighbors might think I'm a loon since we have multiple green cars and 2 wall chargers visible from the street, and sometimes 3 cars charging.

    The worst part is, that most the lunatic fringe has no idea what a car is for or how it works. They see them as political statements or fashion jewelry. I see them as tools. I'm not driving green to support any political movement. I drive what fits my needs the best. If it saves a Free-Range Tofu herd in Iceland, all the better I suppose. But I really just hate poor performance in a car. It's not necessary at all anymore.
     
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  11. arcus

    arcus Active Member

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    Two things I take out from this news:

    1) Ford is constantly evaluating what sells on a given market and adjusts its supply-demand approach.
    2) Ford is making room for a number of new EV vehicles in their lineup, in line with this.

    Current Fusion and Fiesta ST are two sweet looking cars IMHO, so hopefully they won't be completely gone.
     
  12. AZ Desert Driver

    AZ Desert Driver Rare combination

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    Do you suppose- that there might be a surplussed Ford plant that could be used by Tesla? Dos our favorite company need some room to make Pickup, Roadster, Semi, Model Y and other things not yet announced? Perhaps he has a real estate office that could look for a new NUMI type deal.
    I see one company pulling back, while another company is expanding - and needing similar buildings and equipment. Ford was selling around 300,000 sedans per year. Musk is planning on how many?
     
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  13. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    While 21 is certainly better than 15, it is still horrible.
     
  14. LCR1

    LCR1 Active Member

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    Most of the vehicles ford sells aren't subject to EPA/CARB fuel requirements and therefore don't count against their fleet average.
     
  15. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Eh, you live in California - they probably don’t think anything of it. I work at a military base and have had many, many car guys and big truck dudes at work approach me to quiz me about my Tesla (and my Volt before that). Even very conservative folks in this state are still interested in EVs and our parking lot is full of hybrids.

    Now, if you had that setup in Lubbock or Midland - the neighbors would think you a total loon. (I spent my formative years in West Texas and still have relatives there).
     
  16. LCR1

    LCR1 Active Member

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    In Houston, Dallas and McAllen, and everywhere on the way to Georgia, I've never had one person give me *sugar* about my car. As a joke yes, but they are all interested in them.
     
  17. azred

    azred Active Member

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    What in the world are you referring to?
     
  18. AZ Desert Driver

    AZ Desert Driver Rare combination

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    I think it is interesting that Ford has lost a key supplier...such a special supplier that they have to shut down entire assembly lines for their most important product. How does Tesla avoid a similar fate? 1) perhaps they have more than one supplier for critical parts [which begs the question - Why did Ford not have a back up plan? Did they not have 100 years of experience to draw on?] 2) Perhaps Tesla makes their own products/supplies - or at least can make just about any critical part. And they are the new kids on the block. Smart enough not to have the supply chain at risk to the big guys who just might try to throttle critical parts. [no, nobody would try this type of dirty trick - right?]
     
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  19. TheTalkingMule

    TheTalkingMule Distributed Energy Enthusiast

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