NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

[stopcrazypp]

Just got an e-mail from the author. It sounds like the author understood from a Tesla engineer that miles would be added back as he drove (which is somewhat accurate when the pack warms up) but he did in fact leave with about 40 miles of rated range for the 65 mile trip to Milford hoping that he would capture back the range from the cold pack. He was charging for an hour on a J1772 charger so the pack was already warm.

That's the situation I exactly suspected. The rep thought the range would "return" except he failed to factor in the fact that the guy already drove 11 miles to reach that charger and charged for an hour on a J1772 charger so the pack should have already warmed up. A simple way to tell is to look at the available regen (not sure if it shows up while the car is stationary though).

As I calculated before, the actual range lost overnight was 44 miles (~15kWh or 18% of the battery), which indicates a draw of about 1.36kW overnight or around the same as a space heater. So it could have been the BMS frantically trying to keep up the temperature and like David says, the flat pack with large surface area probably makes matters worse than the Roadster in terms of pack insulation.

Besides from an automatic warning to plug the car in during cold temperatures, there can also be a cold temperature parking mode (also a long term parking mode for airport, but that's off topic). You tell the car how long you will be parked and how far you need to travel and the BMS can optimize the heating cycle (the bare minimum usage would be to allow the pack to cold soak and keeping the pack at -10C/14F, the minimum operating temperature of 18650s). Right now the car can't tell so it probably assumes you will use the car shortly and thus tries to keep the battery temp much higher (which is not optimal in this situation).

 

[Kaivball]

To me, the important bottom line of this whole thing is this:

Every single problem is user correctable, no action by Tesla is needed. If he was an EV owner, this would have been a lesson learned. Don't act like it's an ICE, a change of behavior is in order when you buy an EV, and if you didn't know that when you bought it (really?), then you'll learn it the hard way (like he would have if he was an owner).

His trip could have been taken in ease if he had Range charged, and topped off in the hotel.

-- edit --
One other thing, wasn't it the NYT that sent one of it's tech writers off to pose as an App Store developer for iOS so that they could write a hit piece on how you couldn't make a living as an app developer, only to have his app become a success? Then the subsequently let him go, and never wrote the article?

Correction, he was only removed from his tech-writing assignment:
Daring Fireball Linked List: Bobo, the Accidental Hit App

The issue is that Musk doesn't want to build just the best EV.

He claims that he wants to build the best CAR.

Until these issues are resolved it will never be the best car.

 

[RDoc]

I agree Tesla should have a very sophisticated range prediction app built in. Otherwise there're going to be a lot of annoyed people and some bad publicity as people closer to the general public buy these cars. Having to take an "educated guess" on range is a bit ridiculous given the compute power and sensor complement in the car.

 

[dsm363]

The issue is that Musk doesn't want to build just the best EV.

He claims that he wants to build the best CAR.

Until these issues are resolved it will never be the best car.

The best car is highly subjective and different for everyone. This has been discussed multiple times here already though. This guy just really didn't know what he was doing and did everything possible to run out on the side of the road. Not much else to this story but will still get a lot of attention.

 

[efusco]

In the 120+ posts in this thread I presume someone's mentioned it, but there IS a pretty good way to get a decent estimate of remaining range. On the energy display if you select average and the range (5, 15 or 30 miles) to average over it will give you a decent projection of your remaining range based upon the average energy use over that range. If conditions (speed, weather, terrain) change it won't help as much, but it's fairly accurate since it's using your past history for future prediction. If you've been driving for 50 miles at 65mph into a 10mph headwind and it's 10F outside, set that to average and 30 miles and it'll tell you how far you can go under those same conditions.

Yes, I'd love something more sophisticated, but the fact of the matter is that without terrain data, traffic data, weight in the vehicle data, wind speed and direction data no projection is likely to be any more accurate (and likely less accurate) than just using historical values as I pointed out above.

 

[huntjo]

No, nobody mentioned it yet.

I have no evidence to refute that someone at Tesla was giving this guy misleading information, but I still can't get over the fact that he didnt just turn off the heater and drive slower. Speed by way of air resistance has such a major impact on range that if he just slowed down to 45 or 50 instead of trying to go 55-65 then he could limp to his destination easily. Moreover,he readily admits that he charged only for an hour on a low-amp charger, and tried to drive farther than the rated miles visbile on his screen.

Grade A sensationalism and intentional battery draining to make his story have the ending he had preconceived. No excuse. He just didn't even try to do it correctly. His night time unplugged cold weather loss is completely irrelevant to his ending up stranded, though I admit it is a real phenomenon that needs to be addressed.

See my post in the winter driving thread, on driving 70 miles in single digit temps with only 40 RATED mile on the battery. If you have low battery, either stop and charge or drive slower and use less auxillary.

Winter Driving Experiences - Page 22

 

[dpeilow]

And I just got tweeted this story by a ^space acquaintance in Australia...

 

[Robert.Boston]

GeorgeB should be preparing a carefully worded response to this story. It's serious enough that it needs a corporate response. I'm glad I sold half my position on Thursday; looks like I'll be able to rebuy at a nice profit once the market reacts to this story.

 

[rlpm]

Would this be helped if the range estimate accounted for the "hidden" range when the battery is cold? Since he drove 11 miles and then charged for an hour, ostensibly the battery was warm and there was no "hidden" range to rely on when leaving for a destination ~60 miles away with only ~40 miles estimated range. If there was never any hidden range, there would be no need to explain that range may come back when the battery warms up, and therefore no associated misinterpretation, misunderstanding or misrepresentation. The only remaining explanation for running out of juice would be PEBSWAS : Problem Exists Between Steering Wheel And Seat.

 

[Norbert]

Just got an e-mail from the author. It sounds like the author understood from a Tesla engineer that miles would be added back as he drove (which is somewhat accurate when the pack warms up) but he did in fact leave with about 40 miles of rated range for the 65 mile trip to Milford hoping that he would capture back the range from the cold pack. He was charging for an hour on a J1772 charger so the pack was already warm.

Meanwhile I studied an insert, a graphic, on each page of the article, labelled "Multimedia". When you click on it, a new window opens with a map of the trip, and more details for each stop. In that insert, it says the "Est. remaining range" (after 1 hour charging) was 32 miles. Not 40.

And that's after "after completing the battery conditioning process", previously, in Groton. Given he *completed* that process, I suppose it should already have brought back any range, or at least most of it, which warming the battery can bring back. *Perhaps* he was told he could bring back *some* of the range lost overnight, by warming the battery *either* through conditioning, or by driving. This *might* be the misunderstanding: that he thought he would get even more back by driving, *in addition* to the conditioning. But then, he also already drove 11 miles. And, even hypothetically in the absence of prior conditioning, would you blindly rely on 32 miles estimated range to "warm up" to 57 (or even 65) miles of driving, given the possibility to just continue charging?

Other examples for what appear to be misunderstandings are:
- The battery conditioning actually reduced the estimated range. I suppose the person giving him the advice was expecting he would do this when plugged in, during that process.
- The claim that turning off cruise control would be a positive. (As someone pointed out, it would make more sense the advice referred to *climate* control.)
- Tesla's online range numbers, and the online range calculator, assume a range-mode charge. It appears he isn't aware of "range mode" at all. Otherwise, Tesla's online range calculator would have told him that *at 30 degrees* and "normal highway speeds" (was that 65 mph, or was it more?), that a "standard" 242 mile charge wouldn't be sufficient for a 200 mile distance. Which was the problem he started with.
- He suggests he believes that if the display shows estimated 185 mile range, he should be able to drive that exact distance even at 30 degrees. (Maybe it would be nice if that were the case.)

At the beginning, the article refers to "Tesla’s claim of 300 miles of range under ideal conditions". All the way through, he seems to have been most reluctant to acknowledge how far-from-ideal *his* conditions were, while doing a very effective job of blaming Tesla for everything. Apparently he thought on a sunny day, everything is supposed to be fine even without an understanding of the car's basic features.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

GeorgeB should be preparing a carefully worded response to this story. It's serious enough that it needs a corporate response. I'm glad I sold half my position on Thursday; looks like I'll be able to rebuy at a nice profit once the market reacts to this story.

I agree with the idea that GeorgeB should be writing up a blog post about this adventure. Probably he should have done so when our winter driving thread hit 50+ pages, along with providing cold weather customers the accumulated wisdom therein.

Going off topic, I've been profit taking as well, and I don't see how this does anything good for the stock price on Monday. But at the same time I'm not totally sure how this affects the market long term.

 

[brianman]

The truth is that the Model S and the Super Charger Network are still in their infancy, and what Tesla has accomplished so far is nothing short of astounding, but they still have a long way to go before this is a mainstream car.

To a certain degree I agree with this assertion but in a different way:

The mainstream needs to get educated. The car is fine.


It's kind of like people complaining about the snow traction of a vehicle that is sporting summer 21" tires. The vehicle is not the problem. The tires are not the problem. The driver is.

 

[Jaff]

Kaiv, if TMC waited for the Model S to be perfect (read idiot-proof), we'd all still be waiting for our cars :wink: ...pretty tall order to turn out a perfect product at first blush...I'm sure Elon does want to build the best car, but it's and always will be a work in progress...some time will be needed to correct faults & shortcomings and I think we can all agree that they are working hard and moving in the right direction...

The issue is that Musk doesn't want to build just the best EV.

He claims that he wants to build the best CAR.

Until these issues are resolved it will never be the best car.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree Brian...it will have to be a two-way street though...TMC doing a better job of communicating the "how to's" of driving EV's, and the masses climbing up from the bottom rungs on the EV knowledge ladder...

To a certain degree I agree with this assertion but in a different way:

The mainstream needs to get educated. The car is fine.


It's kind of like people complaining about the snow traction of a vehicle that is sporting summer 21" tires. The vehicle is not the problem. The tires are not the problem. The driver is.

 

[AnOutsider]

Just got an e-mail from the author. It sounds like the author understood from a Tesla engineer that miles would be added back as he drove (which is somewhat accurate when the pack warms up) but he did in fact leave with about 40 miles of rated range for the 65 mile trip to Milford hoping that he would capture back the range from the cold pack. He was charging for an hour on a J1772 charger so the pack was already warm.

That has happened before, hasn't it? I remember my first night with my car and almost not making it home.. My DS just told me to regen and I'd be fine. He even "challenged" me to make it home with the same mileage. Had I not known what I read on this board (and drove slower, avoided hills, turned heat off etc), we likely would not have made it home.

I say that to say, perhaps some of the staff do take it for granted that everyone knows how to drive an EV.

 

[Norbert]

In the 120+ posts in this thread I presume someone's mentioned it, but there IS a pretty good way to get a decent estimate of remaining range. On the energy display if you select average and the range (5, 15 or 30 miles) to average over it will give you a decent projection of your remaining range based upon the average energy use over that range. If conditions (speed, weather, terrain) change it won't help as much, but it's fairly accurate since it's using your past history for future prediction. If you've been driving for 50 miles at 65mph into a 10mph headwind and it's 10F outside, set that to average and 30 miles and it'll tell you how far you can go under those same conditions.

Yes, I'd love something more sophisticated, but the fact of the matter is that without terrain data, traffic data, weight in the vehicle data, wind speed and direction data no projection is likely to be any more accurate (and likely less accurate) than just using historical values as I pointed out above.

As huntjo said, it wasn't mentioned yet. I noticed that, and it surprised me about this discussion, given all the other detail that was discussed. Perhaps one not-so-distracting way to show the projected-from-history range (while driving) would be to have a small marker which moves along the range bar in the center of the instrument cluster.

But I think the plain problem with this drive was that he simply charged to narrowly in the first place, even in terms of his own understanding. If you don't have any experience with the car, you simply need a much larger buffer until you can try to get closer to the minimum. At least in cold weather. On the other hand, getting close to the minimum and writing "I arrived with 3 miles range left" makes the story much more exciting, and that's why we'll keep seeing a variety of "barely arrived" stories for a while. At some point people will get what's behind that excitement, and its attraction.

 

[PatP]

That has happened before, hasn't it? I remember my first night with my car and almost not making it home.. My DS just told me to regen and I'd be fine. He even "challenged" me to make it home with the same mileage. Had I not known what I read on this board (and drove slower, avoided hills, turned heat off etc), we likely would not have made it home.

I say that to say, perhaps some of the staff do take it for granted that everyone knows how to drive an EV.

It happened to me on my first trip - thinking I had a 60 miles buffer (and I drove a Roadster for two years)... Happened to a friend of mine. And this will happen many many times in the future if things don't change. In some ways, this article is a positive thing for the long term of EV. Let me explain...

Right now, Tesla has a California centric point of view. For example, the rated range is almost useless in cold climates. My average consumption is over 500 kw/miles. The longest I can make during winter is about 180 miles.

I've been saying for months that the rated display is dangerous and will create really bad situations. My friend who had no experience with electric cars, has NOT been told about range mode charge and was never informed on the VERY SIGNIFICANT impact of cold weather (more than 35%).

Tesla has to be much more straightforward on these things and change the UI of the car to be much more realistic and conservative (at least for cold climates).

These things need to happen now so they are fixed before the mass market embrace EVs.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But I think the plain problem with this drive was that he simply charged to narrowly in the first place, even in terms of his own understanding. If you don't have any experience with the car, you simply need a much larger buffer until you can try to get closer to the minimum. At least in cold weather. On the other hand, getting close to the minimum and writing "I arrived with 3 miles range left" makes the story much more exciting, and that's why we'll keep seeing a variety of "barely arrived" stories for a while. At some point people will get what's behind that excitement, and its attraction.

This is common in a lot of EV test drives by journalists unfamiliar with them. They tend to like to cut it close. And if they don't make it, they have an article that probably gets even more reads. Fact of the matter is an article where the tester makes it with plenty of range to spare tends to be more boring (if he made this trip we would not have this long thread).

 

[jerry33]

This is common in a lot of EV test drives by journalists unfamiliar with them. They tend to like to cut it close. And if they don't make it, they have an article that probably gets even more reads. Fact of the matter is an article where the tester makes it with plenty of range to spare tends to be more boring.

Yep. If it bleeds, it leads.

 

[cycledrum]

The manual for my chainsaw is several times longer than the "Owners Guide" for my Model S. Your point would have some validity if Tesla had produced an owners manual.

Oh, that's not good. I think the owner's manual for my ... Prius is about 600 pages.

 

[dpeilow]

Some interesting points and counter-points over here: Range anxiety in a Tesla