[NYT] How did GM Create Tesla's Dream Car First?

[deonb]

Who cares when it was announced. It was practically non existing when Model S launched, yet first adopters didn't mind.

What are you taking about? Most of us wouldn't have bought the car if the SuperCharger network wasn't announced.

To be equivalent here, GM just has to announce that they're committing to building out a network. Have they done that?

 

[AndY1]

Why would they? There are other companies committed to that and the CCS network is growing.

You can always get a Bolt EV and a Volt, both for less money than the Tesla Model S and you don't even need to SuperCharge at all.

 

[deonb]

Why would they? There are other companies committed to that and the CCS network is growing.

You can always get a Bolt EV and a Volt, both for less money than the Tesla Model S and you don't even need to SuperCharge at all.

The CCS rollout cadence is exactly the opposite of Tesla Superchargers. They're located inside cities where people live, as a replacement for charging at home. If someone is going to pay to roll out for-profit chargers they will want to cover the highest density areas - which is what happened. For "home" charging, people can somewhat change their schedule if chargers are busy at specific times to just go later or earlier - which causes an even distribution of usage.

Tesla SuperChargers however are specifically designed for inter-city travel. Has been from day 1. Day -300 for that matter. But long distance travel chargers need to have a far overdesigned capacity that will be able to accommodate the busiest weekends and holidays, which means it sits 95% unoccupied the rest of the time.

That makes the system a loss leader which adds value to the car - but NOT to the charger owner. As such, it has to be either rolled out or subsidized by the car manufacturer, or government. GM has explicitly said that they will not subsidize CCS rollout. So they're going to have to learn this (fairly obvious) lesson the hard way.

 

[3Victoria]

I do not think the Bolt and the Model 3 are directly competing, and therefore they both have their place.

The Bolt should compare itself to comparible ICE cars and demonstrate its strengths compared to them: less pollution, maintenance, full charge every morning, more cargo space, etc.

 

[AndY1]

The CCS rollout cadence is exactly the opposite of Tesla Superchargers. They're located inside cities where people live, as a replacement for charging at home. If someone is going to pay to roll out for-profit chargers they will want to cover the highest density areas - which is what happened. For "home" charging, people can somewhat change their schedule if chargers are busy at specific times to just go later or earlier - which causes an even distribution of usage.

In Europe, we have the EU mandate and financing for building fast charging network on European highways. My country got a complete highway coverage in last fall because of the EU mandate and financing, so in Europe, a Bolt EV owner will have no problems for longer distance highway traveling.

Green Corridors of Slovenia.We enable e-mobility.

 

[deonb]

In Europe, we have the EU mandate and financing for building fast charging network on European highways. My country got a complete highway coverage in last fall because of the EU mandate and financing, so in Europe, a Bolt EV owner will have no problems for longer distance highway traveling.

Green Corridors of Slovenia.We enable e-mobility.

That's why I said "or government" above.

The US has a bigger chance of switching to the metric system than for government to fund or mandate long distance charging.

 

[Xenius]

TLDR: They didn't.

 

[wycolo]

lifestyle focus

OMG, he's right. Trustworthy, Loyal . . Clean & Reverent is not enough! Apparently all these years I've been deficient in Lifestyle Focus. This Tesla Fanboy now sees the Light!

nonetheless:

TM M3: North American Content = 100% (??) since body, power unit & battery all made in NA.

GM Bolt: North American Content = 60% (??) since power unit & battery made in S Korea.
--

 

[gavine]

The biggest challenge for GM with the Bolt, in my opinion, is getting the dealers to sell them. I wonder how many people will go to buy one only to find that they don't have any available and have the salesman sell them an ICE instead while they are ripe for a new car. It's going to happen and probably a lot.

 

[sandpiper]

The basis of the story is spot on.

GM got to Musk's goal for an "affordable" EV first. To drive the point home, GM made it even more embarrassing for Tesla by providing 20 miles more range than the Model S60.

We don't know what the range of the '3' is. I don't believe for a second that it will be less than that of the Bolt. The '3' is a much slipperier car and I expect that it will have a similar size battery. Tesla is sandbagging the '3' range and we will all be surprised when they announce the projected EPA rating. Heck, even the S60 has range of 233 miles - for a much larger & heavier car. My prediction for the 3 is for three models: 60/75/90D - with ranges of 280, 338, 384 miles.

Tesla should not have wasted so much time and resources on the Model X and their problematic doors and trying to make the P versions 0.1 second faster. Telsa took their eyes off the prize and got passed.

Tesla made a mistake with the X. But the mistake was to try to do too much. They went in figuring that they could use the S skateboard, put a different body into the "opportunity space" on top and double sales. That didn't happen.

And, irrespective of that, Tesla could not put out a '3' for that price without the gigafactory. They can't produce the batteries at the price or in the volumes required.

 

[jbcarioca]

We all should be happy GM is trying. The hyperbole is understandable to me because these days many press and public representatives are rooting for somebody, anybody, to offer a product competitive with Tesla. OK, the Bolt is not, but it does have the potential to convert a few tens of thousands people who would not consider a Tesla. The range is not applicable to highway speeds, but cars in this class don't spend too much of their lives on high speed long trips.

Of course, Mary Barra is adamant that GM will do nothing to help with charging. By the time very many Bolts are on the road there will be a lot of CCS stations (after all those MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW wehicles will all be CCS. All the Bolt buyer will need to do is make certain to pop for the optional CCS hardware. By the time they're out CCS will be much faster than it is.

There is no need to diss the Bolt. It is the first non-Tesla to be practical to use in non-compact urban areas. That is Good!

It's also Good that Tesla finally is getting a trifle closer to competition, although ignorant press types vastly exaggerate how close the Bolt has come to the Model 3. Anyway, Model 3 will now hav a slightly higher Rated Range on the base model. That is also Good.

 

[sandpiper]

lifestyle focus

OMG, he's right. Trustworthy, Loyal . . Clean & Reverent is not enough! Apparently all these years I've been deficient in Lifestyle Focus. This Tesla Fanboy now sees the Light!

nonetheless:

TM M3: North American Content = 100% (??) since body, power unit & battery all made in NA.

GM Bolt: North American Content = 60% (??) since power unit & battery made in S Korea.
--

I doubt that it's that high. GM buys a lot of parts from overseas. I'd guess closer to 40.

 

[sandpiper]

Funny, how a lack of fast charging, when Model S launched, wasn't a problem for Tesla owners, but now, it is.

Times change. Tesla was competing with.... nothing. The Bolt is competing with Tesla.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

We all should be happy GM is trying. The hyperbole is understandable to me because these days many press and public representatives are rooting for somebody, anybody, to offer a product competitive with Tesla. OK, the Bolt is not, but it does have the potential to convert a few tens of thousands people who would not consider a Tesla. The range is not applicable to highway speeds, but cars in this class don't spend too much of their lives on high speed long trips.

Of course, Mary Barra is adamant that GM will do nothing to help with charging. By the time very many Bolts are on the road there will be a lot of CCS stations (after all those MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW wehicles will all be CCS. All the Bolt buyer will need to do is make certain to pop for the optional CCS hardware. By the time they're out CCS will be much faster than it is.

Well, they could be. But if the cars can only charge at 50kW, the chargers will be 50kW. The 90 miles in 30 minutes that was on the Bolt page, the 90 miles in about 30 minutes that Pam Fletcher was quoted on recently, and the 90 miles in 30 minutes that returned to the Bolt page after the EPA range announcement doesn't suggest that the Bolt is going to have faster charging capability, and it's the Bolt that's likely to be the leading influence in CCS deployment. It's going to set the CCS network back _years_.

 

[jbcarioca]

I doubt that it's that high. GM buys a lot of parts from overseas. I'd guess closer to 40.

In the Bolt case we only need to wait for the Automotive News supplier list and other such detail. I suspect we'll see non-US content for Bolt well above 50% even though a decent portion of that might be NAFTA.

Tesla has been higher US content than almost any GM from the first Model S until now. However, Tesla does import much of the machine tooling, paint shop and robots.

 

[jbcarioca]

Well, they could be. But if the cars can only charge at 50kW, the chargers will be 50kW. The 90 miles in 30 minutes that was on the Bolt page, the 90 miles in about 30 minutes that Pam Fletcher was quoted on recently, and the 90 miles in 30 minutes that returned to the Bolt page after the EPA range announcement doesn't suggest that the Bolt is going to have faster charging capability, and it's the Bolt that's likely to be the leading influence in CCS deployment. It's going to set the CCS network back _years_.

CCS is going in to support the Europeansmostly, not GM. GM explicitly is NOT paying for any infrastructure. The Europeans are already doing it and will soon begin in NA. The CCS speeds will go up then. Bolt needs the infrastructure but GM makes it crystal cler they will not help. All the Europeans are going the make the difference in 2020. GM is nominally first, but not with a praxtical network.

 

[Yuri_G]

How did GM make the first "mass market" EV? First lower the bar for what qualifies as mass market. 30k in the first year and 50k maximum yearly production is luxury EV levels, not mass market. If we're going by that metric, Tesla beat GM to the punch. Second, sell the car at cost or at a slight loss. GM can afford to lose money on the Bolt, whereas Tesla has to make money on each car sold. Overall a good step for EVs, but the media's negativity towards Tesla is disappointing and makes them look like shills when they come out with puff pieces for the Bolt.

 

[AndY1]

How did GM make the first "mass market" EV? First lower the bar for what qualifies as mass market. 30k in the first year and 50k maximum yearly production is luxury EV levels, not mass market. If we're going by that metric, Tesla beat GM to the punch.

How did Tesla beat GM to the punch?

 

[Yuri_G]

How did Tesla beat GM to the punch?

If mass market means 30k-50k cars sold in a year, the Model S already qualifies as mass market.

 

[Shawn Snider]

How did Tesla beat GM to the punch?

I sense you're trolling from reading your posts, either that or common-sense completely evades you.