Off topic galore

[engine ear]

Individual ground source heat pumps are interesting, and dandelion energy is an example of a company working to bring
the costs down. However, a networked approach to ground source heat pumps is maybe more interesting.

Some advantages:
1) customers with waste heat (grocery store refrigeration, data centers, industrial customers) can add heat while other customers consume heat, making network more efficient
2) provides a business model for a gas company to transition to, becoming a thermal utility instead of a just a gas utility
3) works on many different scales, so can start start with a city block
4) bore holes can be drilled on utility right of way
5) viable path for apartment dwellers since an apartment owner is unlikely to perform major capital costs of drilling their own bore holes

In some places they are using the term 5th generation district heating, or ambient temperature district heating, because roughly ambient
temperature water is circulated through a network and customers use a heat pump on premises to provide heating and/or cooling.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509944981871497218

 

[petit_bateau]

Thanks for your comments and sharing your experience. Kathy at Dandelion said the conductivity of the soil is very important and water works well as it is very conductive. Going 8 ft. down I wonder what technology they use; horizontal drilling or how about Elon's boring device on a small scale? In the US NE she claims that the system costs around 20-25K with incentives(heat-pumps have similar incentives as PVs.
New homes would be the most cost effective. In Ukraine they might require new homes after the Russians demolition of structures.
The economics of PV's with GSHP might work well. I also thought that converting heat to electricity and storing it in batteries or EVs might be more economical. Also someone thought doing BTC mining would be another benefit.
I personally might be interested in doing something along these lines in property in California.

Indeed the ground has tio be suitable. Easy to drill (or dig), thermally conductive.

An 8ft borehole sounds quite shallow. The normal way to do boreholes of this nature is with a hydraulic rig mounted on a little construction tractor (Bobcat or similar). One does not use horizontal / directional drilling techniques for this - that would be the wrong tool for the job. You put more or deeper boreholes in for bigger systems, or if the ground termal properties are poor. Boreholes are very expensive.

To give you some fairly crude comparisons for the 14kW system that is sufficient for the large house we did recently (240m2/300m2 = c. 2,400 / 3,000 sq ft) the installed prices were approx. These prices include all taxes, and exclude any subsidies, i.e. this is the actual amount paid (in the ASHP) unsubsidised:

ASHP = GBP 11k = USD 14k
GSHP (slinky in trench) = GBP 20k+ = USD 26k+
GSHP (dual or triple borehole) = GBP 40k+ = USD 52k+

Since there is very little technical advantage these days in using a GSHP you can see that the cost/benefit of the ASHP is vastly sperior to the GSHP. And since the ASHP suits 90% of properties whereas the GSHP only suits 10% of properties it becomes a no-brainer. (For the purists the CoP on a GSHP is somewhat better, but by no means enough to make up the difference).

I'm sizing a 6-8kW ASHP for another property at the moment and I am being quoted GBP 7-8k for an install in approx Sep-Dec period. Your prices look on the high side to me. These prices are for Mitsubishi 'Ecodan' units which are inverter-drive units. I prefer inverter drive personally as you get better compressor control.

PV and ASHP can work well, depends on various factors. PV and AirCon work extremely well. The house with the 14kW also has PV and that will be beneficial for 9-months of the year in helping to mop up excess electricity. It all depends on your local circumstaces, one cannot generalise that aspect of it.

(I'll make a copy of this to the Daily Energy News thread later - see Energy Sector News)

 

[jerry33]

Indeed the ground has tio be suitable. Easy to drill (or dig), thermally conductive.

An 8ft borehole sounds quite shallow. The normal way to do boreholes of this nature is with a hydraulic rig mounted on a little construction tractor (Bobcat or similar). One does not use horizontal / directional drilling techniques for this - that would be the wrong tool for the job. You put more or deeper boreholes in for bigger systems, or if the ground termal properties are poor. Boreholes are very expensive.

To give you some fairly crude comparisons for the 14kW system that is sufficient for the large house we did recently (240m2/300m2 = c. 2,400 / 3,000 sq ft) the installed prices were approx. These prices include all taxes, and exclude any subsidies, i.e. this is the actual amount paid (in the ASHP) unsubsidised:

ASHP = GBP 11k = USD 14k
GSHP (slinky in trench) = GBP 20k+ = USD 26k+
GSHP (dual or triple borehole) = GBP 40k+ = USD 52k+

Since there is very little technical advantage these days in using a GSHP you can see that the cost/benefit of the ASHP is vastly sperior to the GSHP. And since the ASHP suits 90% of properties whereas the GSHP only suits 10% of properties it becomes a no-brainer. (For the purists the CoP on a GSHP is somewhat better, but by no means enough to make up the difference).

I'm sizing a 6-8kW ASHP for another property at the moment and I am being quoted GBP 7-8k for an install in approx Sep-Dec period. Your prices look on the high side to me. These prices are for Mitsubishi 'Ecodan' units which are inverter-drive units. I prefer inverter drive personally as you get better compressor control.

PV and ASHP can work well, depends on various factors. PV and AirCon work extremely well. The house with the 14kW also has PV and that will be beneficial for 9-months of the year in helping to mop up excess electricity. It all depends on your local circumstaces, one cannot generalise that aspect of it.

(I'll make a copy of this to the Daily Energy News thread later - see Energy Sector News)

I guess it depends on what area you are in because last year when I installed an air type heat pump ASHP was $30K and GSHP was $70K+. And I couldn't get the best ASHP because the wait list was so long they were not giving delivery estimates.

 

[mongo]

They could be put on the vehicle production lines to do QC. My misaligned steering wheel didn't need a specialist to be caught before it left the factory

Firstly, I was responding to "Yep, I'd be very happy if he'd pull back on the FSD and refocus on Tesla energy some more."
Secondly, there were at least 4 Tesla linked people who interacted with the car before you that could have caught the issue.
Thirdly, it's Monday and ...wait TSLA is green now.
Sorry about the QC fail.

 

[JRP3]

Secondly, there were at least 4 Tesla linked people who interacted with the car before you that could have caught the issue.

Apparently not enough

 

[phantasms]

Wife just texted me this. I married well...

 

[mltv]

Cops pull over a Cruise. Not sure what they do about this.
https://twitter.com/tesla_raj/status/1513158081332461591

 

[EVCollies]

I got my second Covid19 booster shot (4 shots in total) last week at a VA clinic. Almost all in the long queue on Wednesday were fellow Vietnam War veterans. We learned to be careful during that war, and continue to take the precautions needed to survive.

The VA has rocked getting my vets COVID vax'd

 

[Curt Renz]

The VA has rocked getting my vets COVID vax'd

Interestingly, vax was the winning response in final Jeopardy today. It was the "question" for the "answer", Oxford's word of the year for 2021 was this 3-letter one, short for a word that goes back to the Latin for "cow".

 

[wipster]

Interestingly, vax was the winning response in final Jeopardy today. It was the "question" for the "answer", Oxford's word of the year for 2021 was this 3-letter one, short for a word that goes back to the Latin for "cow".

Our NBC station is stuck on an A&W commercial, so I'm missing Jeopardy darn it! I wanted to see how Ken Jennings was introduced... I sure hope he becomes the permanent host.

/OT

 

[mongo]

As someone who has used a mobile charger in a 14-50 socket for his entire ownership, I'm still unclear what is better about the wall connector.

The wall charger is more expensive, and it's harder to take with you if you move (and obviously impossible to take with you for a road trip)- those are all cons compared to the mobile connector.

Yes it's marginally faster- but this is L2 charging...it's hours either way-- if you're doing it overnight as most do, who cares if it takes 4 hours or 6 hours? You're sleeping through it anyway.

If you aren't starting with a 14-50 enabled garage, the MC is only 2 or 3 miles of charge per hour with the included 15Amp plug. And that is assuming it's not cold.
Once a person is in new circuit territory, WC cost is offset by a quality 14-50 socket, MC 14-50 adapter (not included since 2019), extra neutral wire, and 50A GFCI breaker.
Back in the day, the WC allowed 72A charging for dual charger vehicles.

 

[Knightshade]

If you aren't starting with a 14-50 enabled garage, the MC is only 2 or 3 miles of charge per hour with the included 15Amp plug.

So 2-3 miles of charge for free, versus 0 miles for free with a wall charger

Once a person is in new circuit territory, WC cost is offset by a quality 14-50 socket, MC 14-50 adapter (not included since 2019), extra neutral wire, and 50A GFCI breaker.

If you mean existing cars--- the mobile connector was free (and mine came with a 14-50 but they're only like $35 for newer cars)

It's not "cost of a wall connector" to buy a quality socket and GFCI breaker (and a 14-50 adapter)

I don't think those add up to the now for new cars $295 price differential from mobile to wall connector either.


And when you move you can just unplug the mobile connector and take it with you. You'll be paying an electrician again to do that with the wall connector (assuming you aren't doing your own labor)-- which means you're again costing yourself significantly more on the wall connector.


And when taking a road trip you can bring the mobile connector with you-and use it at air bnbs, friends/relatives you've staying with, RV parks, etc... which is simply not possible with the wall connector.


So again seems to come down to:

Wall connector costs more, is less flexible, is harder to move with... but charges marginally faster when you'll be asleep for charging either way.

 

[JimS]

So 2-3 miles of charge for free, versus 0 miles for free with a wall charger




If you mean existing cars--- the mobile connector was free (and mine came with a 14-50 but they're only like $35 for newer cars)

It's not "cost of a wall connector" to buy a quality socket and GFCI breaker (and a 14-50 adapter)

I don't think those add up to the now for new cars $295 price differential from mobile to wall connector either.


And when you move you can just unplug the mobile connector and take it with you. You'll be paying an electrician again to do that with the wall connector (assuming you aren't doing your own labor)-- which means you're again costing yourself significantly more on the wall connector.


And when taking a road trip you can bring the mobile connector with you-and use it at air bnbs, friends/relatives you've staying with, RV parks, etc... which is simply not possible with the wall connector.


So again seems to come down to:

Wall connector costs more, is less flexible, is harder to move with... but charges marginally faster when you'll be asleep for charging either way.

Yeah, okay. But the Wall Connector is cooler. YOLO!

 

[jerry33]

Have you used a J1772 adaptor? It works but is a pain. If you have two cars (one not a Tesla) you need two outlets. A J1772 EVSE and a 14-50 or Wall Connector. (This is what I do for now because there were no 3 or Y in 2015). Y on order for next year. The J1772 EVSE will be changed for a 14-50.

It used to make a difference when the Wall Charger could charge at 80 amps. Now, not so much, and charging time really only matters if you have a short TOU.

World-wide Tesla doesn't have 80% now due to all the tiny BEVs in Europe and Asia. More importantly, there is no EV market, there is only a car/light truck market--that's the only market that has meaning.

 

[JRP3]

and mine came with a 14-50 but they're only like $35 for newer cars

$45 when I got mine a few weeks ago.

 

[mongo]

“You will never be able to recharge an EV in two minutes like you refuel now..."

Good luck with that dude!

Should refueling time include the time it takes to make the money to pay for the fuel?
Time actively tending the apparatus?
Maybe then divide into miles of range?
Miles per minute of life expended?

 

[Buckminster]

Could Elon attend the All-in summit in one month and record the 69th episode?

 

[betstarship]

Didn't realize it was this bad

Americans are drowning in spam

Spam texts, calls and emails are all on the rise.

www.axios.com

 

[scaesare]

As someone who has used a mobile charger in a 14-50 socket for his entire ownership, I'm still unclear what is better about the wall connector.

The wall charger is more expensive, and it's harder to take with you if you move (and obviously impossible to take with you for a road trip)- those are all cons compared to the mobile connector.

Yes it's marginally faster- but this is L2 charging...it's hours either way-- if you're doing it overnight as most do, who cares if it takes 4 hours or 6 hours? You're sleeping through it anyway.

My take on it from 8-1/2 yrs ago... opinion hasn't changed much although pricing has: TWC vs UMC

 

[scaesare]

???!? We’ll here’s a post. My wall connector has been flawless for 3+ years.

And at nearly 9 yrs later, my same HPWC is still chugging...., at one point my wife ran over the connector, and I had to replace the cable, but that's it...