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- Thread starter Drrobmiller
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What if a pedestrian was standing there? A vehicle that leaves the roadway is not one that is driving well. In many states, driving over the curb is a ticket-able offense, because it's not safe.
I can probably make it to work at 100 MPH most days on a 50 MPH road. Is that "safe" because I didn't hurt anyone? We give people tickets for unsafe driving all the time even when nobody was hurt, so setting your limit at "it's safe until someone gets hurt" would be a drastic change to the road laws in the USA.
Conveniently, Elon does, and he says "Safety is always top priority at Tesla." Not sometimes. This is demonstrably false, albeit a good marketing message.
Making cars. If Tesla wanted to be involved in the fewest fatalities, they'd never make a single car.
Uh. No. That's a business, not a priority. I think you got a few things wrong here...
EDIT for second part of your message:
What about caring for safety so much that you want to make safer cars so overall less people die?
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2000 Tesla employees.
71 beta testers.
Tesla generally defines accidents as things that trigger passive restraints. They wouldn't count a 5 MPH "fender bender" or a ruined rim, but most people would.
But.... That's all for v8. They themselves say v9 is a complete rewrite and has new bugs. So what does previous statistics have to do with this at all? And how did they know v8 was safe if the only data we have for it is from months after it was on the road?
Saw that coming from a million miles away. Well, umm, no, that's different.....
No, it's not. Tesla's #1 priority is to be a functional business, making money, selling cars to customers. To do that, they must balance many important things, one is safety. But safety does not trump everything else. Remember, their mission is "advancing sustainable transport." What's higher priority than your mission statement?
Tell me, if safety was THE top priority, how do you justify Tesla removing radar, and thus removing safety features from the car (even if temporarily)? Those cars were less safe for a time period. It's almost like they have competing needs, and have to balance them, rather than using a single priority to dominate all others. How do you explain the fact that the rear doors on a Model 3 have no manual release if the power goes out?
This does not mean Teslas are not "safe". Yes, they build cars which are very safe compared to other modern cars. But that is not proof that they only make the very safest decision technically possible, all other inputs be damned. It means they work like any other functional company, with tension between priorities, not any one top priority.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Sure but in the case of autonomous driving, the avoiding accidents part is really important. You want the AV to minimize accidents as much as possible. Diminishing harm in case of an accident is part of every vehicle design, autonomous or not.
I'm not the one that said FSD is safe because it hasn't caused any accidents.
As someone that does ISO 26262 and FAA 1309 FHA's for a living, I am well aware of safety goals and the analysis you do to achieve overall acceptable safety.
However, it's really hard to get hurt when no accident occurs, and thus it's the primary goal of an autonomous system. What part of Tesla's FSD system is meant to diminish the harm caused by an accident, but not avoid the accident?
Of course, we're not talking about autonomous systems here. We're talking about Tesla's L2 city streets autosteer beta, and if Safety is the top priority in Tesla releasing it.
I don't think this is how it works.. FSD beta 8.2 seems extremely safe around pedestrians from what I've seen so you can't make assumptions about throwing pedestrians into a situation and assuming it would react the same way.
I don't entirely get your point here? Basically everything in life is inherently a little dangerous. Safety as #1 priority doesn't have to be the same thing as 0 accidents. I don't think there's a way to argue safety is or isn't their top priority without involving opinions...
I don't know what you're trying to achieve here. You're trying to bring everything under the sun to trump safety.
Tesla is NOT delivering something not safe. DRIVERS are opting it to TEST something that is not TESTED TO BE SAFE. FSD is not a product yet. We should have this conversation when it IS. Until then, I think we should disconnect FSD from safety.
This started because Elon tweeted this, tying the FSD release to safety. Maybe Elon shouldn't bring up safety when he's shipping beta software if we all agree it's safety is unknown. My whole point is that Elon is a genius, albeit disingenuous marketer with every single tweet, and people lap it up. Look at everyone here trying to defend the idea that Tesla is all about safety and nothing else, in the middle of a discussion about how excited we are that V9 might fix all the unsafe things in V8.
I can see how you interpret his tweet. But I can also interpret it another way.
It doesn't matter, at this point, you probably decide more about Tesla than its CEO, therefore I am putting myself out of this argument. I'll continue to enjoy my unsafe NHTSA 5-Star car.
You realize NHTSA stars are how the vehicle protects you in an accident, not how it assists with preventing an accident?
If NHTSA ratings are proof of company culture to you, you're lucky you got one before NHTSA had to take away checkmarks for the removal of radar. Weird action for a safety above everything else company to have "early release" cars rated higher than "later release"
100's of near misses in FSD Beta videos that would have been collisions into street fixtures, and head-on collisions into buses. That is what we have seen on the videos that people have posted. Who knows what has happened that they didn't post, but nothing has made the news.
100's of near misses is a terrible risk, if only a fraction of those carried through in the next five seconds we would be discussing the accidents. Count ourselves lucky, but having no known multi-car accidents is nothing to be proud of. There but for the speed of some untrained tester's reflexes.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I read Elon's tweet as "FSD Beta is not very safe on its own but Tesla values safety so please pay attention so you can avoid accidents."
I think we do need to distinguish between the inherent safety of FSD Beta (how many accidents would it get into without a driver) and the safety because an attentive driver is taking over to prevent accidents. Those are two very different things.
People/Entities who you don't believe in:
- NHTSA
- Elon Musk
- Andrej Karpathy
- Tesla
- Anyone in TMC.
People you believe in:
- Yourself
Like every deep Tesla supporter, you've moved on to attacking people, not the ideas presented.
I must sadly admit you're right. Not about the deep Tesla supporter, that I'm not. But ever since you presented yourself as some ISO compliance 69420 stuff, I don't respect you anymore as a person I'd like to have a fruitful discussion with. You clearly stated that your opinion matters more than others' and yes, from there on I moved on from you.
EDIT: Not "people", just you.
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