P3D vs AWD from ~35mph to ~70mph ?

[Knightshade]

Are we assuming the hardware is not different there must be at least a higher fuse used in the PM3 or upgrades motors

No, exact same drive unit parts in both cars

That's why the VIN letter for motors is the same for P and AWD.

(also the alleged binning of drive units would make no sense if they had different parts in them)

Based on all available evidence P is simply an AWD with different software running.... (or an AWD is a software gimped P if you prefer)

 

[super20g]

Who would drive a Performance in chill?

And can I buy it at half the sticker price in a few years please?

 

[skrtskrt]

No, exact same drive unit parts in both cars

That's why the VIN letter for motors is the same for P and AWD.

(also the alleged binning of drive units would make no sense if they had different parts in them)

Based on all available evidence P is simply an AWD with different software running.... (or an AWD is a software gimped P if you prefer)

It seems those people who got P- ran into those problems and those who got P+ never had an issue. Initially track mode was meant for P+ until people complain and now Tesla will have to find a way for those who got P-.

 

[Knightshade]

It seems those people who got P- ran into those problems and those who got P+ never had an issue. Initially track mode was meant for P+ until people complain and now Tesla will have to find a way for those who got P-.

Huh? what issue?

The P- and P+ also have the same VIN leter for "motors" as the AWD does. No difference.

The track mode difference is mainly due to how heavily the Model 3 uses the brakes for traction control (rather than a real LSD) so it needs the upgraded brakes to handle more abuse on the track.

 

[skrtskrt]

Huh? what issue?

The P- and P+ also have the same VIN leter for "motors" as the AWD does. No difference.

The track mode difference is mainly due to how heavily the Model 3 uses the brakes for traction control (rather than a real LSD) so it needs the upgraded brakes to handle more abuse on the track.

By issue I mean people buying P- and ended up with AWD and had to get it updated. People who got P+ never had this issue. But I think I may have misread you.

 

[PhaseWhite]

Spend the money and get the P version otherwise you will always wonder if you "should" have spent the money.

Agree with this sentiment. If you have the P itch at all, then not scratching it could cost you more in the long run if you decide to trade in and buy a P.

 

[JeffK]

P+ No regrets here. Was it more that I should spend?... yes, but totally worth it.

 

[Uncle Paul]

There is no way to determine future upgrades that may be possible.

In the past Tesla has found ways to enhance the performance of many of their vehicles. In my 75 X they preformed an uncorking and for the P models also found ways to turn up the wick.

Like so many things in life, you need to make your decision determined by what you know now, but it is a roll of the dice how additional performance may or may not be available in the future, and at what costs.

 

[ulrichw]

Huh? what issue?
[...]
The track mode difference is mainly due to how heavily the Model 3 uses the brakes for traction control (rather than a real LSD) so it needs the upgraded brakes to handle more abuse on the track.

Do you have an original source for this information? I generally agree with what you've been saying, but this argument (and I've seen it stated by others unsourced elsewhere on this forum, too) makes no sense to me.

The amount of energy that the brakes have to absorb to provide traction control should be minuscule compared to the amount of energy they need to absorb to slow the car down. While the (unupgraded) standard brakes are definitely not up to the task of slowing the car down on the track, I find it unlikely that the traction control would come close to overwhelming them.

Remember that any energy going to the brakes is subtracted from energy accelerating the car: If this energy is large, the car's acceleration will be greatly diminished. The reason that brake-based limited slip is an effective substitute for an LSD is that this energy is not large.

A more plausible explanation is that there are parameters for the traction control system that operate semi-closed-loop and are specifically tuned for the way the "big" brakes respond. This would mean, however, that changing brake pad compounds may adversely affect the traction control.

The most plausible explanation is that this is simple market positioning by Tesla. They want to extract the most money they can out of people, and positioning the performance upgrade package car as the "real" performance car (and therefore the only one that comes with track mode) lets them do it. I just hate that they made the performance upgrade package a "bling performance" package instead of a real performance package.

 

[ewoodrick]

If you haven't driven one, they are both really quick accelerating on the road.
They'll pass at 90 when you are expecting only 60

 

[brianman]

By issue I mean people buying P- and ended up with AWD and had to get it updated. People who got P+ never had this issue. But I think I may have misread you.

This is partly due to the 20" wheels. Hard to mistake a P+ for anything else (at delivery).

 

[Richt]

Thanks for the data. This makes sense me. As speed increases so does wind resistance so at fixed horsepower difference the differential will shrink.

FYI this P3D+ we have is a complete rocketship at 30-60. In some ways faster given there is throttling at the start (the wheels do not even chirp at start)

 

[Richt]

Who would drive a Performance in chill?

Because there are times to go crazy and times when cruising on the highway isn’t going to need so much acceleration. At least for us, we find chill dramatically improves efficiency on those long freeway runs. Autopilot is way better in chill mode. 300Wh vs 250Wh/mile in these modes. So having cake (the fun) and eating it too (getting 310 mile range..)

 

[Knightshade]

Do you have an original source for this information? I generally agree with what you've been saying, but this argument (and I've seen it stated by others unsourced elsewhere on this forum, too) makes no sense to me.

The amount of energy that the brakes have to absorb to provide traction control should be minuscule compared to the amount of energy they need to absorb to slow the car down. While the (unupgraded) standard brakes are definitely not up to the task of slowing the car down on the track, I find it unlikely that the traction control would come close to overwhelming them.

The fact the brakes largely are both the traction control and the LSD substitute in addition to the brakes is why they cook so fast on the track.

But ultimately, the brakes are the only significant physical difference between the P- and P+, so they have to be the difference for track mode or not by process of elimination.

A more plausible explanation is that there are parameters for the traction control system that operate semi-closed-loop and are specifically tuned for the way the "big" brakes respond. This would mean, however, that changing brake pad compounds may adversely affect the traction control.

That's certainly a possible alternative explanation for why the brakes are a requirement for track mode... cheaper to only do one "set" of programming/testing than to do it for multiple different HW configs.

But then yes it would cause exactly the problem you describe with changing any parts out- so if this is the "real" reason I expect you'd see some disclaimer with track mode indicating use of non-OEM brake parts can cause adverse effects.

The most plausible explanation is that this is simple market positioning by Tesla. They want to extract the most money they can out of people, and positioning the performance upgrade package car as the "real" performance car (and therefore the only one that comes with track mode) lets them do it.

If that were the case they would've announced the requirement up front, instead of shipping a ton of P- cars before anyone knew they needed + for track mode.

Market positioning nobody knew about when ordering is pretty poor market positioning.

I just hate that they made the performance upgrade package a "bling performance" package instead of a real performance package.

Agreed... I didn't bother with P at all because my daily drive is 95% highway where the P offers nearly nothing the AWD does not...(and the remaining 5% offers basically 0 opportunity for a stoplight race)...so $11,000 for dropping from 4.5 to 3.5 0-60 made no sense... and 5k more on top of that for giant wheels and brakes I had no use for made even less sense.

But if they'd offered a real major suspension upgrade, like adjustable magnetorheological shocks or something, and nicer wider lightweight forged 18s or 19s with wider PS 4S tires, I'd have been far more likely to drop the cash than just quicker to 60 or track bling.

 

[Carl_Drogo]

Test drive both the RWD and Performance AWD model if you can. For daily driving, the
RWD is more than fast enough for some people.

I test drove both the RWD and Performance and there's no question I have ruled out the RWD. But it doesn't seem possible to test drive a regular (non-P) AWD. My local showrooms only have RWD and P3D with performance package. They say they can "cripple" the P3D and put it into some kind of mode that simulates non-P AWD. I suppose that would give me a sense of the acceleration questions I have, but I still think it's not quite the same as driving an actual AWD. The suspension is different, the wheels and tires are different, the breaks (calipers) are different, and as mentioned in this thread, there *might* be some differences in the motors or inverters that were binned and sorted for the P3D+.... So I'd really like to drive an actual AWD version, but may have to just rent one on Turo or something.

At the end of the day I might just get the Performance regardless, so that I don't feel like I shortchanged myself, as you mentioned. But I'd still like to know what I'd really be getting (performance wise) for my money besides some hypothetical stats. So hopefully I can test drive a real AWD sometime soon.

 

[Knightshade]

I test drove both the RWD and Performance and there's no question I have ruled out the RWD. But it doesn't seem possible to test drive a regular (non-P) AWD. My local showrooms only have RWD and P3D. They say they can "cripple" the P3D and put it into some kind of mode that simulates non-P AWD.

If they mean chil- no, that'd be slower than RWD even.

The S has an easter egg that'd let you turn it into other lesser S models- but the 3 did not have that at all (as recently as a month ago when I did a P test drive- guess they might have added it since but I haven't heard about it).

I suppose that would give me a sense of the acceleration questions I have, but I still think it's not quite the same as driving an actual AWD. The suspension is different, the wheels and tires are different, the breaks (calipers) are different, and as mentioned in this thread

For the P+ yes... (though how much real suspension difference there is is an open question).... the P- none of those things are different AFA anybody has seen.

FWIW, having test driven a P+ and owning an AWD... the only difference either I or my wife (a former Supra owner) found noticeable was the 0-60 difference.

Both cars are quicker than 95% of what's on the road- but the P added the "stomach drop" feeling a bit launching from 0 (not as much as a P100D but still definitely there), while the AWD just goes without that extra bit....and on the highway the difference was hardly noticeable at all.

, there *might* be some differences in the motors or inverters that were binned and sorted for the P3D+

If they were different then binning would make no sense and the VIN for motor would be different.

At the end of the day I might just get the Performance regardless, so that I don't feel like I shortchanged myself, as you mentioned. But I'd still like to know what I'd really be getting (performance wise) for my money besides some hypothetical stats. So hopefully I can test drive a real AWD sometime soon.

Ultimately it depends what type of driving you do, and how much you do it.

If you don't track the car (the non-drag type of track) then the 5+ upgrade does nothing useful for you. If you do- then it offers several potential benefits (though if not for track mode I'd still tell you to skip it and put the MPP upgrades on a P- instead)


If you don't stoplight race much, the extra 0-60 does little to nothing useful for you either since at highway speeds the P/AWD difference is pretty tiny and both beat even most supercars.... but if you're OFTEN flooring the car from 0 for whatever reason the P gets you there a full second quicker, which is normally very expensive or impossible to get on most cars for "only" ~10k.

 

[nogassnorlax]

so $11,000 for dropping from 4.5 to 3.5 0-60 made no sense... and 5k more on top of that for giant wheels and brakes I had no use for made even less sense.
.

The difference is actually $8,750.

Most likely the P will get delivered within this year if you order right now: $77,500 (w/ EAP) - $7,500 = $70,000

And assuming you won’t get AWD delivered at the end of the year if you order right now: AWD (W/ EAP) $65,000 - $3750 = $61,250

For $8,750 if that’s not a stretch for you, is an awesome deal and get to have all the bling and speed and you wont’t have to think if you should’ve bit the bullet and got the P+.

I have no plans on doing track racing. I bought the P+ simply because I feel in love with it when I test drove and I knew this is exactly what I wanted. Even though a AWD non-p would’ve been suffice, truth be told, I probably wouldn’t have bought a model 3 if it wasn’t for the P3D+.

 

[SageBrush]

Thx for any insights.

Here
The Performance version has about 28% more maximum power. I think it is pretty much available throughout the driving you are interested in.

 

[Knightshade]

The difference is actually $8,750.

Most likely the P will get delivered within this year if you order right now: $77,500 (w/ EAP) - $7,500 = $70,000

And assuming you won’t get AWD delivered at the end of the year if you order right now: AWD (W/ EAP) $65,000 - $3750 = $61,250

At the time I ordered it was $11,000...(between AWD and P3D-...a + was a $16,000 difference)... they've jacked AWD up 2k since then (and other things as well like the destination fee, some paint colors, etc). That's why I quoted that number... and why the AWD was such a better deal than the P at the time.

Honestly, even at $8750 I don't think I'd have bitten- the quicker 0-60 I'd use very close to never since very little of my driving involves being at a stoplight with someone else next to me. A previous car has near-P 0-60 times and even when I did live someplace with more common stoplights on multi-lane roads situations I genuinely needed that extra quickness maybe a time or two a month. That's a ton of $ for something I'd use almost never.

And that's basically the only difference between the P- and my car.

The + made even less sense since it was another 5k on top and only gave me wheels and brakes I explicitly wouldn't want or get any benefit from (just the opposite in fact) and a spoiler I also don't want... and pedals I could buy for like $50 on ebay if I did want.... (oh, and technically 10 mph more top speed I'd never use)



As I've mentioned- if they'd offered actual performance upgrades besides some 0-60 quickness... like a much upgraded suspension, I'd have happily paid 8750, or even the 11k, for it... My last car I had to special order to get the sport suspension on (Lexus) and wait months extra to get it so I'd be happy to do that here...but not so much as far as offerings from Tesla in that regard.

 

[Knightshade]

Here
The Performance version has about 28% more maximum power. I think it is pretty much available throughout the driving you are interested in.

that's some really weird analysis.

For one they list different gear ratios for the AWD and the P... something I've never seen any evidence of- and which is contradicted by the whole notion of binning the drive units

It kinda reads like "We just guessed at some stuff and then scaled them till they got a simulation to spit out 0-60 numbers that looked right"