P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[gnxs]

Again, anyone who was paying attention should have easily recognized that it wasn't going to have to top end equivalent to other sports cars with similar power and weight. If it kills the other cars at 0-60 but then crosses the 1/4 at basically the same time, then you should know that it's not accelerating up top like the other car. The other car has to catch up somewhere along the way. Maybe my background in fast cars and 1/4 miles made that obvious to me but not to other people. I just don't understand the surprise.

I guess my drag racing background has me reacting the same way as you. I'm always surprised to see people not understanding why the P85D doesn't perform as they expect on the back 1/8th mile. Given it's weight and lack of a transmission, it performs at least as well as I expected over the course of an entire 1/4 mile.

If folks want to test themselves against high-powered ICE cars in roll races, they need to get another vehicle or at the very least get "Ludicrous".

 

[vgrinshpun]

That is a fantastic point about the horsepower as it relates to our insurance costs. In the many hundreds of posts I have read now on this issue (actually it could be in the thousands) I don't think I've seen anyone raise that issue before! That is really significant!

Thanks too for the personal support!

Let's not split hairs here. I am sure that you aware that insurance cost is not proportional to any single factor, but rather complex combination of a lot of them. Hp is not on the top of the list as far as factors affecting insurance cost are concerned. The fact that MS is the car with the lowest probability of injury of any other car, minivan or SUV tested by US government is probably contributing to the cost much more than hp of the car.

The cost to insure MS, comparatively speaking, is surprisingly low. My 2+ years old P85+ costs approximately the same to insure as my 3+ years Acura MDX, although MS is a sport sedan costing trree times as much as MDX.

 

[Andyw2100]

Let's not split hairs here. I am sure that you aware that insurance cost is not proportional to any single factor, but rather complex combination of a lot of them. Hp is not on the top of the list as far as factors affecting insurance cost are concerned. The fact that MS is the car with the lowest probability of injury of any other car, minivan or SUV tested by US government is probably contributing to the cost much more than hp of the car.

The cost to insure MS, comparatively speaking, is surprisingly low. My 2+ years old P85+ costs approximately the same to insure as my 3+ years Acura MDX, although MS is a sport sedan costing trree times as much as MDX.

Are you suggesting we would not be paying any less if the HP reported to insurance companies was lower than what it is being reported as now?

If not, nothing else you wrote matters.

The bottom line is P85D owners are paying higher insurance rates than we should be because of the way Tesla reported the HP. Period!

 

[yo mama]

Are you suggesting we would not be paying any less if the HP reported to insurance companies was lower than what it is being reported as now?

If not, nothing else you wrote matters.

The bottom line is P85D owners are paying higher insurance rates than we should be because of the way Tesla reported the HP. Period!

I don't know about you, but my State Farm guy told me it was all about replacement value. We discussed the 0-60 time because I was afraid of getting dinged for that. He pulled up and showed me his program and the only two fields that really mattered were "Model S" (there was only one choice - it didn't differentiate between 70 or 85 or P85D) and the total cost of the car. That's it. HP/MP didn't enter the equation, unless the program was somehow sophisticated enough to know that a more expensive car had more HP/MP, which I very much doubt.

 

[darthy001]

Here in Norway there is a significant markup for the P85D vs the 85D/P85(+) for insurance purposes. And they do of course list the P85D as having 700hp.

My original qutoe was double that of a P85, but I got it down to about 30% markup over a P85 in the end.

That said the insurance premium doesnt really bother me as its minimal in the grand scheme of things. Thats why I havent brought it up in these discussions previously.

 

[Krugerrand]

Insurance company pricing criteria varies by country. It varies by state/province/region. Something to keep in mind when making all encompassing statements (on BOTH sides of the argument).

 

[darthy001]

Insurance company pricing criteria varies by country. It varies by state/province/region. Something to keep in mind when making all encompassing statements (on BOTH sides of the argument).

Correct. And clearly seen above here.

But to add that here in Norway at least _all_ the major companies list the car as having 700hp and pricing it like an ICE with 700hp. Believe me I checked before taking delivery

 

[perkiset]

Same for me, Allstate. They were only concerned about Model S and purchase/replacement value. Oh, heh, that and if my kids were still on the policy

So it may be possible that insurance companies (writ large) have generally assumed that a Tesla can be upwards of 700HP and set up rates for that, but in that case, both my 85D and my wife's forthcoming 70D are paying for that possibility as well. And in that case, irrespective of if it's 691 horsepower or 591 horsepower, I am paying more than I should for my cars, which have neither. Hence, I do not care because it is immaterial.

It seems that folks are starting to really pull arguments out of the weeds to continue to prop up the I've Been Mislead and I Didn't Get What I Paid For arguments. Hard argument over a 1' rollout? This is not a formula class racing machine, or even advertised as a car you should put on the track. It's a street vehicle FCOL. It accelerates as advertised. You'll not be able to tune the carbs and exhaust, get platinum sparks and a titanium shaft. It is what it is and does what they say.

I understand that there may be a few people here that really bought it because of "691." But since this is such rare air (an electric and horsepower ratings) I think it's disingenuous to assume that it'd actually be rateable as apples-to-apples against ICE. So there's a component of both caveat emptor and understand what you've bought that doesnt seem to be present in the arguments. So I still do not understand the clutching to a number, when the car performs as it was advertised.

 

[darthy001]

And there is the reason I didnt want to bring up the insurance part before. Just another easy argument for the "you crybabies"-crowd...

That you actually mention the rollout and still claim it performs as advertised says it all, but that has been argued to death already anyway.

Tesla introducing rollout out of thin air on one model only cant possibly be seen as correct even if a number of 1/4-mile enthusiasts in the US understood this.

1/4-miling isnt a thing in many other countries just so you know. I had no clue what "trap speed" or any other terms was a year ago. Sadly now I do...

 

[Krugerrand]

Correct. And clearly seen above here.

But to add that here in Norway at least _all_ the major companies list the car as having 700hp and pricing it like an ICE with 700hp. Believe me I checked before taking delivery

Can you provide links to a few insurance companies in your country that list pricing for various HPs? Like Norwegian Insurance Co. 4 door sedan, 500HP = 400NOK/month, 700HP = 450NOK/month vs Norway Ins Co. 4 door sedan, 500HP = 376NOK/month vs 650 HP = 425NOK/month. Note all those figures are purely fictitious, I have no idea how much it costs you.

 

[darthy001]

Can you provide links to a few insurance companies in your country that list pricing for various HPs? Like Norwegian Insurance Co. 4 door sedan, 500HP = 400NOK/month, 700HP = 450NOK/month vs Norway Ins Co. 4 door sedan, 500HP = 376NOK/month vs 650 HP = 425NOK/month. Note all those figures are purely fictitious, I have no idea how much it costs you.

Yes and no, getting a quote/price requires entering your social security number....

So link yes, numbers not really when I get to a computer I can make some screenshots. To much work on an ipad mini..

 

[Krugerrand]

Perkiset, you make valid points. The Model S (soon to add X) is so different and so new that insurance companies on their best day are having a difficult time pulling right stuff out of the right orifices to get right and proper premiums. I'm mostly familiar with insurance companies placing significant importance on safety/likelihood of injuries (therefore medical benefit payouts) as well as region populace (therefore likelihood of an accident in the first place), age/sex/experience of driver/traffic violations. As well a 'family' vehicle is likely to have a lower premium than a two-door sporty vehicle etc...

 

[darthy001]

@krugerand

Largest company I believe is if.no and attached is the list of choices for a Model S

edit: Hehe, one of the other largest companies gjensidige.no actually lists the Model S as "call us, you cannot apply online"...

 

[Krugerrand]

Yes and no, getting a quote/price requires entering your social security number....

So link yes, numbers not really when I get to a computer I can make some screenshots. To much work on an ipad mini..

No problem. Just curious how it works and what sort of price difference we're talking about between various HP numbers. Tx

Adding after seeing your latest post: That insurance company is on top of the S variants!

 

[vgrinshpun]

Are you suggesting we would not be paying any less if the HP reported to insurance companies was lower than what it is being reported as now?

If not, nothing else you wrote matters.

The bottom line is P85D owners are paying higher insurance rates than we should be because of the way Tesla reported the HP. Period!

I was suggesting that you are splitting hairs and hp insurance cost impact, if any, is not significant, by a long shot. Please do not twist my words.

And yes, I agree with all the posts above - we are well beyond the point of reasonable conversation here...

 

[perkiset]

And there is the reason I didnt want to bring up the insurance part before. Just another easy argument for the "you crybabies"-crowd...

Let me be clear: I'm not yelling that people are crybabies. In fact, I have deep empathy for I Didnt Get What I Paid For. Which is why I've tried pretty hard to get beside that argument and see what it means. And that's where I get disconnected. Horsepower is not performance, and the car performs as advertised. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around Legal Action and the kind of discomfort that's being shown here when I can't fathom how there's actually been a deception.

That you actually mention the rollout and still claim it performs as advertised says it all, but that has been argued to death already anyway.

Tesla introducing rollout out of thin air on one model only cant possibly be seen as correct even if a number of 1/4-mile enthusiasts in the US understood this.

1/4-miling isnt a thing in many other countries just so you know. I had no clue what "trap speed" or any other terms was a year ago. Sadly now I do...

In my businesses, we can use both GAAP and income tax basis for our books, returns, demonstrations to share holders etc etc. With a flick of the wrist and the change of a depreciation method, I can change the net revenue from one of our largest businesses from 10MM to 0. Instantly. (OK ok, that's a bit bombastic) So the argument over a 1' rollout being accepted here but not there, and that as the basis of deception, just doesn't hold water because it's ALL spin. Just about everything is. So again: is this really about a vehicle that is not performing as expected? And be honest: Have you put it on a track and tested it under ideal conditions and, because of or lack of a 1' rollout you've demonstrated that you gain/lose .1sec? And this spectacularly esoteric difference is really enough for so many to be this pissed off about?

Perhaps so, I don't know. But I'd really like to hear an argument that makes sense out of what I just described, because I can't see it. And believe me, after a couple hundred pages here and elsewhere, I've certainly tried.

 

[darthy001]

No problem. Just curious how it works and what sort of price difference we're talking about between various HP numbers. Tx

Adding after seeing your latest post: That insurance company is on top of the S variants!

More or less all Norwegian companies list all known variants like this. HP is a major contributor to cost in Norway. Its the way the companies differentiate and assign "risk for accidents"..

One more example of the same attached here:

 

[Andyw2100]

Insurance company pricing criteria varies by country. It varies by state/province/region. Something to keep in mind when making all encompassing statements (on BOTH sides of the argument).

Fair point.

I should modify my statement above then, to "The bottom line is at least some P85D owners are paying higher insurance rates than we should be because of the way Tesla reported the HP."

 

[darthy001]

Let me be clear: I'm not yelling that people are crybabies.

Fair point. Also the reason I didnt name you in my post

In my businesses, we can use both GAAP and income tax basis for our books, returns, demonstrations to share holders etc etc. With a flick of the wrist and the change of a depreciation method, I can change the net revenue from one of our largest businesses from 10MM to 0. Instantly. (OK ok, that's a bit bombastic) So the argument over a 1' rollout being accepted here but not there, and that as the basis of deception, just doesn't hold water because it's ALL spin. Just about everything is. So again: is this really about a vehicle that is not performing as expected? And be honest: Have you put it on a track and tested it under ideal conditions and, because of or lack of a 1' rollout you've demonstrated that you gain/lose .1sec?

The rollout added time is more in the ballpark of 0.3-0.4seconds on the P85D when talking 0-100kph. And that is actually a noticable difference. Funnily enough Tesla is selling that exact difference for 7500USD plus sales tax here in Norway as we speak They agree that its ludicrous...

 

[Krugerrand]

More or less all Norwegian companies list all known variants like this. HP is a major contributor to cost in Norway. Its the way the companies differentiate and assign "risk for accidents"..

Okay, so a few questions for you: Do you think that's a fair way to price vehicle insurance in your country? Do you believe that having more HP equates to a higher probability of an accident? Is that in fact true from your reality/perspective? What is the next most important factor for your country's insurance companies when it comes to assigning premiums?