P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[Dwu0212]

That's really off the chart wrong. I absolutely did not miss that you don't care about ECE R85. I brought it up because the fact that you really did not care about properly investigating Tesla 691hp claim, including ECE R85 is actually contributing to your misunderstanding of P85D specifications.



Yes, I believe that you got exactly what you paid for, the problem is that what you *thought* you were getting was not the same thing as actual Tesla specifications.

It amazes me how you post with a straight face, all I see in your posts are excuses and many times, nonsense. Tesla advertised 691 hp motor power without any explaination or disclaimer, most people, including medias believed it will output 691hp, Even IF(a big if) ECE R85 explain Teslas claim of using combined motor power, the manual is not available to us until after purchase, many members had stated that and you just seem to ignore it

 

[yo mama]

I supposed I entered the transaction knowing about the 1 foot roll out assumption so it didn't bother me.

 

[AWDtsla]

It does not. Must buy the Ludicrous upgrade to do 0-60 in 3.1 not using 1 ft rollout cheating.

It's an American car, they measure things in American ways, get over it. There is absolutely no controversy in the US over the 0-60, it is confirmed by multiple entities at this point. Given you paid half of what you'd pay for any other equivalent ICE car the amount of complaining from this area really comes off in a bad way. You're going to say "oh but that's not the point", but it doesn't change how it looks. Cringe-worthy.

 

[darthy001]

It's an American car, they measure things in American ways, get over it. There is absolutely no controversy in the US over the 0-60, it is confirmed by multiple entities at this point. Given you paid half of what you'd pay for any other equivalent ICE car the amount of complaining from this area really comes off in a bad way. You're going to say "oh but that's not the point", but it doesn't change how it looks. Cringe-worthy.

If you knew that Dennis traded in a car that actually made the advertised times would that change things?

Getting what you paid for doesnt count either because EVs are subsidised in Norway? What BS is that?

To me your argument makes no sense and is cringe-worthy on its own.

In our country 0 actually means ZERO. Fine that you americans knew about this aspect, but that does not vindicate Tesla for _introducing_ use of roll-out without any warning on the P85D alone.

Strangely they didnt feel the need for roll-out on their previous Model S-versions, but I assume your are perfectly fine just ignoring that Tesla changed they way they advertised one particular model and kept the other ones, including the new 85D, with accelleration times not using roll-out?

 

[MuppetOwl]

It's an American car, they measure things in American ways, get over it. There is absolutely no controversy in the US over the 0-60, it is confirmed by multiple entities at this point. Given you paid half of what you'd pay for any other equivalent ICE car the amount of complaining from this area really comes off in a bad way. You're going to say "oh but that's not the point", but it doesn't change how it looks. Cringe-worthy.

Example edmunds magazine and many other also think its cheating.
How We Test Cars and Trucks

On the other hand, the use of rollout with 0-60 times is inappropriate in our view. For one, 0-60-mph acceleration is not a drag-racing convention. More important, it's called ZERO to 60 mph, not 3 or 4 mph to 60 mph, which is what you get when you apply rollout. While it is tempting to use rollout in order to make 0-60 acceleration look more impressive by 0.3 second, thereby hyping both the car's performance and the apparent skill of the test driver, we think it's cheating.

When Tesla sells car to Norway or any European country they have to apply to the rules or the measure methods used in that county. Example Tesla had to equip the model S with Fog lights in the rear for Europe.

I did buy the car thinking it would have about the same time to 60 mph like my old car, but its a bit slower and the Tesla did cost over twice as much. Off course my old car was far from a new car, but I should be able to compare the car to other cars using the correct 0-60 or 0-100kph. Above 60 mph I did not expect the car to beat my old car since it did the 1/4 mile in 10.8 sec

 

[AWDtsla]

Strangely they didnt feel the need for roll-out on their previous Model S-versions, but I assume your are perfectly fine just ignoring that Tesla changed they way they advertised one particular model and kept the other ones, including the new 85D, with accelleration times not using roll-out?

Again, I've come to expect this. The non-performance models often get very mediocre ratings, and the performance models get timed out like they are in drag race. Just think that Subaru (not even a US manufacturer) had taken out a full-page advertisement with a 0-60 time for the WRX that was a full second+ faster than the no-launch/no-rollout time. All the Subaru fans loved it.

This is just confusing the horsepower issue.

 

[WarpedOne]

When Tesla sells car to Norway or any European country they have to apply to the rules or the measure methods used in that county.

Absolutely. It would be interesting to know what rules in Norway made tesla publish what they did.
They for certain are different from those in USA, because in USA tesla said something different.
Pure translation is the simplest, they need to spent some additional energy to publish different specs.

Anyone from Norway here that knows anything about those Norwegian regulations?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

One of your points has been that on the Tesla website it never said (except in Denmark and perhaps some other countries) 691 HP. There was always that "motor" word thrown in--691 Motor HP. You've been suggesting for a long time that that makes all the difference, and that anyone who bought the car should have known that 691 Motor HP did not mean 691 HP.

For purposes of this discussion only, I'll go along with you on that for now. My point, then, is that all those magazines were describing the cars as, in one way or another, "Tesla's 691 HP Model S P85D." How was anyone supposed to think the car was capable of producing anything less than 691 HP when the magazines were referring to it as the 691 HP P85D?

THAT is my point.

Your issue with those representations should be with the magazines, not Tesla.

For example, here is a "performance report" put out by Road & Track on the P85D. Note the "estimated" HP and torque graph. Everything on this sheet was put out by Road & Track, not Tesla. Check it out and see what you think...

Is it Tesla's fault that R&T is promoting 691 HP along with "estimated" HP and torque graphs in a document titled "Performance Report"?

 

[AWDtsla]

Example:

Advert claims 5.3 seconds

C/D TEST RESULTS:

Zero to 60 mph: 5.9 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.8 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 7.3 sec

Street start 7.3 seconds!!!

 

[yo mama]

@AWD - while I agree that (likely) all car advertisements take some creative licenses with numbers it's probably equally true that few people are buying a subaru primarily for its 0-60 time. So I understand the heightened level of scrutiny/frustration of P85D owners in this regard, because the 0-60 time was probably a huge motivation. I'm still happy but I can empathize with those that aren't.

 

[AWDtsla]

@AWD - while I agree that (likely) all car advertisements take some creative licenses with numbers it's probably equally true that few people are buying a subaru primarily for its 0-60 time. So I understand the heightened level of scrutiny/frustration of P85D owners in this regard, because the 0-60 time was probably a huge motivation. I'm still happy but I can empathize with those that aren't.

One big reason for me placing my order because the 5-60/street start/"whatever isn't a race launch" 0-60 times are basically superior to every other car out there including their supposed timed ratings. Every ICE car is busy revving or upshifting at this point, even the naturally aspirated high-throttle response engines like from BMW. So I don't see how we can be focusing on a .2 or .3 second difference for that contrived scenario anyway, translation/international differences be damned. The P90D has the most streetable power out of any car I know due to multiple factors like being electric, and thus being both instant and silent, and being AWD.

Edit - to be clear what I am saying is that all ICE cars need to add the time from throttle press to launch-RPMS-ready to their 0-60. Or compare 5-60 times, which means the car is in first gear, engaged, and idling.

 

[jpet]

Rereading that, the wording is a bit strange to me. The use of the words "base option" seem to imply, to me at least, that the "L" version uses a different methodology.

What I understand from JB's blog post is that base option = without features that add weight to the car like e.g. the pano roof, 3rd row child seats, etc... It would be better if they would specify the exact configuration they use to test the car's performance so that owners that do not have that exact configuration understand that their performance will not match the advertised numbers. The same applies to range by the way. I knew I was going to get less range because of the pano roof and 21" staggered wheels.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

If they listed 555 hp, then sales wouldn't have bee anywhere near as good.

I'm not so sure about this. Most who bought the P85D probably did so based on the 0-60 acceleration, not based on 1/4 mile time. Some of the people who signed onto the P85D letter to Tesla do not even own the P85D. It seems like for some, this is a theoretical and hypothetical argument and not one that actually impacts their ownership experience. I get it that there may be a small, vocal minority that is claiming it bought specifically due to that number and that now they are owed something. I'm willing to wager that it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total cars shipped. Tesla should offer a buyback to those owners, but I suspect very few will take Tesla up on such an offer. Why? Because at the end of the day, the number isn't really the deal-breaker they make it out to be in this and other threads.

 

[WarpedOne]

that do not have that exact configuration understand that their performance will not match the advertised numbers.

I'm not so sure about them understanding that.

 

[smac]

One big reason for me placing my order because the 5-60/street start/"whatever isn't a race launch" 0-60 times are basically superior to every other car out there including their supposed timed ratings. Every ICE car is busy revving or upshifting at this point, even the naturally aspirated high-throttle response engines like from BMW. So I don't see how we can be focusing on a .2 or .3 second difference for that contrived scenario anyway, translation/international differences be damned. The P90D has the most streetable power out of any car I know due to multiple factors like being electric, and thus being both instant and silent, and being AWD.

Edit - to be clear what I am saying is that all ICE cars need to add the time from throttle press to launch-RPMS-ready to their 0-60. Or compare 5-60 times, which means the car is in first gear, engaged, and idling.

I have a lot of sympathy for this view. Heck my S60 destroys stuff like M135i's from the lights, which in all reality should be off like a scalded rat leaving me in their wake.

However, and it's a big one, the P85 pulled the same trick often being much quicker than real exotica., but was reeled in in short order after 50mph. I can see why many P85 owners felt the car was not quite up there with RS7s of this world at this speed range.

Then the announcement came of a big hike in HP. Many thought this would settle the scores in the higher speed range, and on that basis traded in perfectly good P85s (which still smoke most things 0-60 in the real world) for P85D's and are now disappointed

Clearly the P90L goes a long way to "fixing" this perceived issue, and the videos of the P90D vs the P85D show this is what was really needed to sort higher speed performance, where the acceleration was mediocre (relatively speaking, it's still pretty good in absolute terms).

Ultimately I think Tesla always intended the P85D to be what the P90D is, but engineering challenges prevented them achieving their original goal. The fix (i.e. the new fuse) is prohibitively expensive to eat the cost for the benefit of good will, so we will just continue dancing round the issue for ever.

 

[scottm]

Moderator:

Can we please consolidate all the "P85D not enough horsepower" threads into one big thread (that stretches here to the moon maybe). Having it all in one spot would be a lot easier to navigate the rest of the forum. And those wanting to read all about it will have just one handy place to go.

Just an idea.

 

[WarpedOne]

+691

 

[eloder]

@AWD - while I agree that (likely) all car advertisements take some creative licenses with numbers it's probably equally true that few people are buying a subaru primarily for its 0-60 time. So I understand the heightened level of scrutiny/frustration of P85D owners in this regard, because the 0-60 time was probably a huge motivation. I'm still happy but I can empathize with those that aren't.

I'm not sure how a Subaru can be labelled as a car not primarily bought for its performance, but a 5000 pound 5+2 seater full-sized sedan can be sought after for its performance.

Oh wait, like horsepower measurements, EVs flip things on their head a bit because of the technological differences

Anyways, the 0-60 times are still accurate, it's just US-accurate. Nothing wrong with that because many magazines confirm the US-accurate number.

I can understand how European buyers wouldn't know that, because we've had zero good US cars before today to export to other countries, but like breaking the speed limit ignorance of the fact doesn't allow you to escape the consequences, nor is it Tesla's fault to advertise in industry standard measurements in the US and US media.

 

[smac]

nor is it Tesla's fault to advertise in industry standard measurements in the US and US media.

What about on EU websites?

 

[yo mama]

That's the EU's fault for not adopting US standards. :ducks: