P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[DoctorJJ]

Horsepower IS a performance measurement rating of work done.

It IS most apparent at speed.

The PD does not perform as well as other vehicles with ~700 because is DOES NOT produce 691HP.
The motors are ONLY capable of the 691 HP rating with the necessary equipment which the the PD does NOT have.

I and many others PAID for the 691 HP as one of our buying decisions. We are disappointed with the performance at speed which is a result of the lack of advertised HP rating.

The 0 to 60 performance rating is not actually from ZERO, and Yes some, but not all American ratings use the 1 foot roll out but it is not from ZERO and should be a disclaimer.

Just curious....If you paid for the upgraded leather interior and did not get it would you not be upset? Would it be fair for me to say it is synthetic leather and you should not complain because it feels like leather to ME!? The 691 HP rating is just that...synthetic....it is not real....it does not exist on the P85D and I was sold on the fact that it does.

There are actual threads by Tesla owners that state the P85D is not worth the extra money because its performance is lacking over the standard S85D after 30 MPH. This is because HP is a performance rating that matters at speed. The P85D does not produce the represented HP.

To hang your hat and say its all OK because the dual motors hypothetically could produce 691 HP just NOT EVER with the current P85D is very lame and no different than any Auto maker advertising their ICE hypothetically was capable of 1000 HP just not with the the configuration which you bought (sucker.) You should have read between the lines. We never meant YOUR car would produce 1000 HP. Thanks for your money sucker. See how that works.


The P85D does not perform as advertised otherwise there would not be a problem.
So stop the misinformation.

Yes, i still like car for all the other positives it has. But I was sold on it producing 691 HP by websites and salespeople and it does not.

I wonder if the sales people are still hyping the artificial HP figures to unsuspecting buyers.

It it does perform. Beyond what they advertised it would do.




I suppose I do feel somewhat sorry for those buyers who weren't astute enough to realize from the advertised numbers that it wouldn't do as well at speed as it does from a dig. I thought it was obvious, from the quoted performance numbers, from the very beginning.

 

[JonG]

Tesla wouldn't have had to explain nearly that much for me to not have even the tiniest of an issue with the whole 1 foot roll out thing. All they would have had to do was include an asterisk or a note that said, "includes 1 foot roll out" and this would have been a complete and total non-issue.

All they needed to do was be consistent across all their cars. They don't seem to quote 85/90D 0-60 times with rollout and it seems to regularly beat the published times. Same with the power figures.

i don't agree but would be more willing to accept the motor power argument if tesla were consistent - but as they're not, it appears it's a deliberate attempt to mislead over the gap between their cars.

 

[darthy001]

What I do not get is the amount of vitriol spilled in their face over this, claims that they schemed to defraud the customers who were manipulated into buying more expensive variants of the car and who "did not get what they paid for". The amazing thing is that these claims persist even after it became abundantly clear that they have no basis.

I wish people realize that reality is formed by the *combined* actions of everybody involved and act accordingly. I do not claim that Tesla communications on the subject were perfect, and I wish that we were not in the situation we are in, but in my view they are not the only ones who are responsible for where we are today.

For me it has been about Tesla cleaning up their act. And while they are slowly getting there we have seen some setbacks on this front lately as well which is causing me to continue spending way to much time in these threads

Summed up:

- Tesla still havent included rollout explanation outside of the US-site. Strangely missing from the sites where its actually most needed.
- Tesla still doesnt list combined HP-numbers for their top of the line models. Still leaving a chance that unsuspecting new customers think adding the front + rear hp-numbers is correct.
- Tesla still has no reference to ECE R85 on the website, and have now even messed up the Norwegian owners manual so that numbers dont add up anywhere. This point is mostly theoretical as not many buyers would now what the standard means, but at least it would give buyers a _chance_ to educate themselves before commiting to a purchase.
- Tesla still hasnt acknowlaged the disappearance of the infamous OTA-update for high speed performance. Seeing that even ludicrous-mode seems to fail to add much ooomph here this point is actually getting less and less important for me, but still annoying that they conveniantly seem to have forgotten about the update now...

Lastly the recent acts from the nordic Tesla pr-rep has without any doubt what so ever been outrageous and deceiving. He outright LIED about many about both his customers actions and Teslas actions to numerous publications in both Norway and Denmark. This upsets me greatly, and a public dismisal of this ********** should be performed ASAP for Tesla Europe to remain at least some credibility. His actions are not worthy of a company like Tesla, and I really hope that no one in Tesla HQ knows about this because that would put them in the "we let this happen"-category.

 

[faughtz]

I have a P85D that was delivered in the 2014 4th quarter push.
Tesla Fashion Island in CA is continuing to state the P85D can deliver 691hp.
Perhaps not surprisingly, store personal seemed confused by my assertion that this is not true.
No recognition of the new caveats/terminology of motor power.
Also not surprisingly, the same employee emphatically states Ludicrous spec is 762hp.
Discussion of my VBOX results and weight / times calculations did not seem to mean much....
I like my P85D, it's just not as exceptional as claimed by Tesla, and I'm disappointed.

 

[Luclyluciano]

It it does perform. Beyond what they advertised it would do.




I suppose I do feel somewhat sorry for those buyers who weren't astute enough to realize from the advertised numbers that it wouldn't do as well at speed as it does from a dig. I thought it was obvious, from the quoted performance numbers, from the very beginning.

Since we arent as astute as you, why not tell us exactly how the PD actually DOES perform and where it performs BETTER than advertised, as you say. When our entire point is that it completely falls short of advertised performance. This will be interesting.

 

[lolachampcar]

It seems the two view points are-

XYZ advertised motor power should provide ABC ICE performance in a BeV
versus
Quoted 1/4 and 0-60 were such and such and the car beats these numbers as delivered

The above is a simplification and does not include the roll out issue (which seems to be European) but I think it captures the basic differing views. The first is a qualitative assessment and the second is quantitative. The first could be considered quantitative as well but that drifts off into the Clinton what the definition of is is and Tesla's approach to quoting power.

 

[darthy001]

It seems the two view points are-

XYZ advertised motor power should provide ABC ICE performance in a BeV
versus
Quoted 1/4 and 0-60 were such and such and the car beats these numbers as delivered

The above is a simplification and does not include the roll out issue (which seems to be European) but I think it captures the basic differing views. The first is a qualitative assessment and the second is quantitative. The first could be considered quantitative as well but that drifts off into the Clinton what the definition of is is and Tesla's approach to quoting power.

More or less so yes, but if you turn it just a tiny bit around and actually include roll-out issue as well, relevant since we do have americans here unaware of this term, the only advertised number they do reach as advertised is the 1/4-mile... And that number was _not_ listed in the design studio when I ordered the car at least. All in all the numbers I saw in the design studio have so far not been met on any front. Close of course, but no cigar.

 

[smac]

It seems the two view points are-

XYZ advertised motor power should provide ABC ICE performance in a BeV
versus
Quoted 1/4 and 0-60 were such and such and the car beats these numbers as delivered

The above is a simplification and does not include the roll out issue (which seems to be European) but I think it captures the basic differing views. The first is a qualitative assessment and the second is quantitative. The first could be considered quantitative as well but that drifts off into the Clinton what the definition of is is and Tesla's approach to quoting power.

Or the third view, which is Tesla should be above all this. They should not have opened themselves up for these debates in the first place

Under promise both quantitatively and qualitatively, and over deliver in both regards The above strategy worked for them so well with the original P85.

First we have the P85D which fails qualitatively, and now it's looking like the "10 second" P90D may also fail quantitatively.


BTW Both are still fantastic cars. I just hate to see the brand muddied by all this when it seems so unnecessary, and at least some of the blame lies squarely at Tesla's feet.

 

[darthy001]

@smac and thats how simple it can be written as well

edit: seems like i cannot give more Rep-points for smac

 

[Luclyluciano]

It seems the two view points are-

XYZ advertised motor power should provide ABC ICE performance in a BeV
versus
Quoted 1/4 and 0-60 were such and such and the car beats these numbers as delivered

The above is a simplification and does not include the roll out issue (which seems to be European) but I think it captures the basic differing views. The first is a qualitative assessment and the second is quantitative. The first could be considered quantitative as well but that drifts off into the Clinton what the definition of is is and Tesla's approach to quoting power.

lola; I respect your posts on mostly everything but I don't agree with you here. The advertised motor horsepower is the electrical motors capability provided the rest of the cars accessories are capable to extract this HP. The current configuration of the PD cannot extract this power from the motors so why would they advertise them knowing their salesforce would sell the car with this fantasy HP rating. You just posted in the thread on how the 1/4 mile time of the P90DL disappoints. This is because the HP is not there.

The rollout issue is derived from NHRA drag strips and largely used by American magazines & manufacturers. The rest of the world commonly consider the American advertised 0-60 times as cheating since they are actually 3-60 times.

The car's disappoints because the true ratings are exaggerated.

Yes it's is a high torque car with with instantaneous power and response. That is all. It is not a 700 HP producing beast. And neither is the Ludicrous mode. We are starting to see the obvious disappointments in the Ludicrous cars now.
I'm not shelling out the extra dough for ludicrous. I don't trust Teslsa's marketing & stats.

 

[jimmyjohn]

So many victims. I see you and feel your pain. So many victims.

Five lies that automotive enthusiasts tell themselves

Five lies that automotive enthusiasts tell themselves

1. Tenths Matter
4. Horsepower Is The Most Important Number

 

[Luclyluciano]

P90DL 1/4 MILE RESULTS.....NOT AS ADVERTISED

Tesla Model S P90D Ludicrous 1/4 Mile Results | DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

 

[DoctorJJ]

Since we arent as astute as you, why not tell us exactly how the PD actually DOES perform and where it performs BETTER than advertised, as you say. When our entire point is that it completely falls short of advertised performance. This will be interesting.

Advertised as 3.2 0-60. Consistently does it in 3.1, as verified by multiple magazines under various testing conditions. 1 foot rollout is the standard and has been for years.
Advertised as 1/4 mile in 11.8. Consistently does it at 11.6. Again verified by multiple magazines and even multiple owners on various tracks around the country.

 

[jimmyjohn]

Advertised as 3.2 0-60. Consistently does it in 3.1, as verified by multiple magazines under various testing conditions. 1 foot rollout is the standard and has been for years.
Advertised as 1/4 mile in 11.8. Consistently does it at 11.6. Again verified by multiple magazines and even multiple owners on various tracks around the country.

+1

P90DL 1/4 MILE RESULTS.....NOT AS ADVERTISED

Tesla Model S P90D Ludicrous 1/4 Mile Results | DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

This is from a revered auto publication or some random person?

In the Tesla Model S P90D -- I bet I could achieve a 0-60mph in 5 seconds and a 1/4-mile in 16 seconds ---- thereby adding credibility(?) to your "NOT AS ADVERTISED" assertion.

Bogus.

 

[Krugerrand]

Lastly the recent acts from the nordic Tesla pr-rep has without any doubt what so ever been outrageous and deceiving. He outright LIED about many about both his customers actions and Teslas actions to numerous publications in both Norway and Denmark. This upsets me greatly, and a public dismisal of this ********** should be performed ASAP for Tesla Europe to remain at least some credibility. His actions are not worthy of a company like Tesla, and I really hope that no one in Tesla HQ knows about this because that would put them in the "we let this happen"-category.

Have his actions been reported to his superior by all the customers who feel he's not done an adequate job?

 

[darthy001]

Have his actions been reported to his superior by all the customers who feel he's not done an adequate job?

Cant voich for the people he actually lied about, but personally I havent mentioned it I am afraid. I have more than enough on my plate trying to get Tesla to give me my seats to start a sidewar on top

 

[gnxs]

Advertised as 3.2 0-60. Consistently does it in 3.1, as verified by multiple magazines under various testing conditions. 1 foot rollout is the standard and has been for years.
Advertised as 1/4 mile in 11.8. Consistently does it at 11.6. Again verified by multiple magazines and even multiple owners on various tracks around the country.

+2.

 

[vgrinshpun]

For me it has been about Tesla cleaning up their act. And while they are slowly getting there we have seen some setbacks on this front lately as well which is causing me to continue spending way to much time in these threads

Summed up:

- Tesla still havent included rollout explanation outside of the US-site. Strangely missing from the sites where its actually most needed.
- Tesla still doesnt list combined HP-numbers for their top of the line models. Still leaving a chance that unsuspecting new customers think adding the front + rear hp-numbers is correct.
- Tesla still has no reference to ECE R85 on the website, and have now even messed up the Norwegian owners manual so that numbers dont add up anywhere. This point is mostly theoretical as not many buyers would now what the standard means, but at least it would give buyers a _chance_ to educate themselves before commiting to a purchase.
- Tesla still hasnt acknowlaged the disappearance of the infamous OTA-update for high speed performance. Seeing that even ludicrous-mode seems to fail to add much ooomph here this point is actually getting less and less important for me, but still annoying that they conveniantly seem to have forgotten about the update now...

Lastly the recent acts from the nordic Tesla pr-rep has without any doubt what so ever been outrageous and deceiving. He outright LIED about many about both his customers actions and Teslas actions to numerous publications in both Norway and Denmark. This upsets me greatly, and a public dismisal of this ********** should be performed ASAP for Tesla Europe to remain at least some credibility. His actions are not worthy of a company like Tesla, and I really hope that no one in Tesla HQ knows about this because that would put them in the "we let this happen"-category.

Allmost all of the Items listed above fall in the category of messed up communications which I strongly dislike as well, but at this point it is mud knee-deep. There is threat of legal action, which I know can't be won, and any lawyer would know that, but plenty of them will engage betting that Tesla would like to settle out of Court, especially if these lawyers demonstrate that it will be more costly for Tesla to go to court and win.

I am with Krugerrand on the issue of the the nordic Tesla representative (would be curious to have a link to the publications that you mentioned)

I would also caution against jumping to conclusions regarding the 1/4 mile times of cars with Ludicrous mode. I think we know by now what a good wild-goose chase feels like...

 

[Krugerrand]

Cant voich for the people he actually lied about, but personally I havent mentioned it I am afraid. I have more than enough on my plate trying to get Tesla to give me my seats to start a sidewar on top

Unless something has happened that you haven't shared of the situation, there's no need to be afraid. Your seats are listed on the bill, right? If so, you'll get them. Tesla is having issues with the seat supplier and appears to have had issues for a while. Just recently Elon spoke of that specifically for the Model X ramp. Seat and windshield suppliers are the ones that can delay the ramp of X. As you know, Tesla is producing more and more S's every quarter, combined with needing to catch up with the backlog, and now adding another vehicle to the line up...it's obvious the seat supplier is a weak link. It would seem prudent for Tesla to navigate to fix this weak link as soon as they can. With so many things on their plate, it would take time.

And that has nothing to do with a senior employee doing a bad job. You've made it sound as if this person intended the bad behavior, if so that can't be allowed to continue. Usually there's a way to provide feedback anonymously if you fear reprisal.

 

[darthy001]

Allmost all of the Items listed above fall in the category of messed up communications which I strongly dislike as well, but at this point it is mud knee-deep. There is threat of legal action, which I know can't be won, and any lawyer would know that, but plenty of them will engage betting that Tesla would like to settle out of Court, especially if these lawyers demonstrate that it will be more costly for Tesla to go to court and win.

I am with Krugerrand on the issue of the the nordic Tesla representative (would be curious to have a link to the publications that you mentioned)

I would also caution against jumping to conclusions regarding the 1/4 mile times of cars with Ludicrous mode. I think we know by now what a good wild-goose chase feels like...

Legal etc is not for me and never has been. Not enough money at stake to even consider that route for me, but both other Norwegians and Danes seem to be going all the pre-req steps for that these days after the respons finally came from Tesla a few weeks ago. The danes should have a slamdunk case. The Norwegians I'd say 50/50 depending on what type of legal councel takes the case.

Most of the publications that have gotten quotes from the Tesla pr-rep have already been linked to in several of these threads. They are of course all in Norwegian and Danish.

Ref the 1/4-mile and ludicrous I am now taking the advice from this forum and doing my due dilligence before sending any money Teslas way.. That means no upgrade for me

Will also point out that my clinton-joke a few posts back was not an attempt at implying you where lying or making up things. It was obviously just a poor attempt at internet humour sorry about that!

- - - Updated - - -

Unless something has happened that you haven't shared of the situation, there's no need to be afraid. Your seats are listed on the bill, right? If so, you'll get them. Tesla is having issues with the seat supplier and appears to have had issues for a while. Just recently Elon spoke of that specifically for the Model X ramp. Seat and windshield suppliers are the ones that can delay the ramp of X. As you know, Tesla is producing more and more S's every quarter, combined with needing to catch up with the backlog, and now adding another vehicle to the line up...it's obvious the seat supplier is a weak link. It would seem prudent for Tesla to navigate to fix this weak link as soon as they can. With so many things on their plate, it would take time.

And that has nothing to do with a senior employee doing a bad job. You've made it sound as if this person intended the bad behavior, if so that can't be allowed to continue. Usually there's a way to provide feedback anonymously if you fear reprisal.

Ref the seats I am just so fed up about it that I am almost giving up, but I did actually get an sms saying they will check again tomorrow only a few hours ago(on a sunday)... And oh yes they are on "the bill"

Ref the pr-guy he repeated claims in at least 4-5 publications that the danes only came with complaints after the ludicrous-upgrade announcement, and that no one else had complained at all. If I remember correctly he also insinuated that it was all a ploy to get this free upgrade. He conveniently forgot to mention that they wrote several letters, emails and had discussions with local staff months prior to the ludicrous-upgrade being launched in july.