P85D (pre/post April) ride performance

[Hybris]

Curious what happens with a single front damper unit (spring or damper as they are considered an assembly) fails when it is first generation sport suspension. Do you think Tesla is going to stock the previous now out of production units to keep the few PDs that got the sport suspension intact?

I hope they do as that is what we did buy.

 

[ra-san]

I really should stop by the local SC and drive the newer, plushy PD

Actually, I wish you would. When there were a few complaints about overly harsh P85D suspension, followed by the first of the new reports of the softer suspension, I was surprised. I wouldn't have thought Tesla would change what I thought was pretty great, and so quickly. I'd really like to know why they made the change. Maybe just simplification and cost savings, but if I were buying a new P85D now I'd feel … well cheated may not be the right word (given they also removed the copy about the suspension on the order page) but disappointed and upset. That's assuming that the new suspension isn't actually as good in handling though, and that may be a bad assumption. Would love to see some actual tests of an early build vs. new on some actual curves, heavy accel/deccel, etc.

I'm very happy with the suspension and would hate it if it got changed out to something less sporty when serviced for some reason, barring some really good explanation.

 

[lolachampcar]

I suspect the reason is the M5/535 split. Most the population does not want the M5 ride. I prefer that connected feeling and am very glad my car was produced when it was with the suspension it received.

 

[Andyw2100]

I suspect the reason is the M5/535 split. Most the population does not want the M5 ride. I prefer that connected feeling and am very glad my car was produced when it was with the suspension it received.

So you did wind up going with the air suspension? (I thought I recalled some discussion--way back--about you possibly going with coils, and I haven't stayed on top of it.)

Assuming you did go with the air suspension, how would you feel if the answer to the question you posed upthread about Tesla replacing a failed front damper is that they are not stocking the parts that are now out of production, and the parts they put on your car turn it into a P85D without sport suspension? Would you feel that you did not get what you paid for?

Edit: I went back through this thread, and I confirmed that you did go with the air suspension.

 

[lolachampcar]

I was assured by the head of chassis engineering that I would not be disappointed with the PD's suspension. As for your question, yep, I would. As for what it implies, I had a good accurate picture of what I was buying based on test drives (yes, I drove the PD before I took delivery) and my understanding of what the motors AND battery were capable of delivering. I know I expect too much of people but I am reasonably sure that anyone that takes the time to understand BeVs knows they can not produce the type of sustained power necessary to fight high speed wind resistance. Put differently, there is no way my PD is going to accelerate like my 12C over 100 mph given the state of technology today. We are going to need pure capacitance gel for that one. Given the state of technology, I was and continue to to be very impressed with my PD and I look forward to Ludicrous.

As I've said before, yes, I do believe that Elon's mouth got ahead of the engineering on an over the air update to anything better than current PD performance. They likely tried it and promptly failed multiple contactors and likely a fuse or two. The added hardware necessitated a charge to get the capability. I'm ok with all of that as the alternative is back to BMW and they simply SUCK by comparison. The complaining that comes with armchair quarterbacking astounds me some times.

 

[Andyw2100]

Assuming you did go with the air suspension, how would you feel if the answer to the question you posed upthread about Tesla replacing a failed front damper is that they are not stocking the parts that are now out of production, and the parts they put on your car turn it into a P85D without sport suspension? Would you feel that you did not get what you paid for?

I was assured by the head of chassis engineering that I would not be disappointed with the PD's suspension. As for your question, yep, I would. As for what it implies, I had a good accurate picture of what I was buying based on test drives (yes, I drove the PD before I took delivery)

OK, thanks.

Would you feel differently about a friend in the same situation, who purchased a P85D, but who had not spoken to the head off chassis engineering, and who had not taken a test drive before accepting delivery? If this friend, who had paid for the sport suspension, was to have his or her failed front damper replaced with dampers that would turn the car into a P85D without sport suspension, wouldn't you feel similarly that they too did not get what they paid for?

 

[cassiri]

Just had a P85+ loaner. It handled like a sports car compared to my P85D (june production). Mine might be a bit softer and quieter but the P85+ feels so much nimbler. I also tried a high speed lane changes and while mine feels floaty and at times dangerous, the P85+ was locked down. I don't know if the pre-April suspension was the same as the + but I would love to have it instead. I'm pretty sure the testers I drove in April would have been sport suspensions. It would be nice if there was a way to firm up the settings a bit. I'm really curious what the thinking was on softening it. Too many complaints? Noise and vibration long term? I do appreciate having the D though as it feels much more secure when accelerating.

 

[lolachampcar]

My PD feels better and more planted than my old P+ when it was on air and about the same as my P+ moved onto coils (and lowered). The big difference is the PD does not have the huge sway bars so it does not have the head snatch associated with my old P+. It really is the best of all worlds which is nice as I've not needed to make any changes and have been able to leave it on the factory air springs without complaint.

 

[sorka]

My PD feels better and more planted than my old P+ when it was on air and about the same as my P+ moved onto coils (and lowered). The big difference is the PD does not have the huge sway bars so it does not have the head snatch associated with my old P+. It really is the best of all worlds which is nice as I've not needed to make any changes and have been able to leave it on the factory air springs without complaint.

I have a P85+ loaner right now and the way you described your PD is the way I would describe the P85+ I have compared to my PD....basically same option after you swap cars.

 

[peteyswift]

I appreciated how my old P85+ indeed felt more planted with less swaying on acceleration or rapid lane changes than the P85s I had driven. But the + plowed and understeered a bit.
Ironically, my first impression of my P85D pre-April build was that a) the seating position was higher b) their was a hint of floatiness with rapid lane changes, but nothing disconcerting. I did notice harshness on rough pavement on the PD and could see how it was troubling for some drivers. This has improved by a noticeable amount for me, though, through a change in tires from 19" summer Bridgestones to 19" Michelin PS3s. The PS3s seem to have a softer rubber and somehow mutes the harshness a bit, yet improves road feel, AND handling/grip noticeably (by my butt measurements). They are also low rolling resistance so have improved efficiency by at least 20 wh/mi. My P85D road feel and handling is now perfect for my tastes. Sorry a bit off topic with the tire stuff.

 

[Niclas]

My PD feels better and more planted than my old P+ when it was on air and about the same as my P+ moved onto coils (and lowered). The big difference is the PD does not have the huge sway bars so it does not have the head snatch associated with my old P+. It really is the best of all worlds which is nice as I've not needed to make any changes and have been able to leave it on the factory air springs without complaint.

What exactly do you mean by "head snatch"?

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I have a P85+ loaner right now and the way you described your PD is the way I would describe the P85+ I have compared to my PD....basically same option after you swap cars.

So, is your PD pre- or post-april? Do you mean your PD is softer and sways more than P85+?

 

[lolachampcar]

Head snatch is a term I have heard used for that flopping from left to right that your head does when going over something like a sleeping policeman (speed bump) at an angle where one front wheel contacts the bump first. It comes from having a very stiff sway bar in the front.

I did like the stiffer front dampers on the P+ which helped the car point into a corner without so much front tire roll over but I never really felt there was much body roll or need for increased roll stiffness (larger sway bars). I suspect Tesla used the large front bar to improve turn in on the P+. The PD uses the front drive to pull the front into and through corners so the big bar is not needed.

 

[Niclas]

Oh I see exactly what you mean now with head snatch, and I agree that it is more pronounced on the P+ than the other Tesla line-up. However I do like the sportier ride and I don´t mind the stiffer sway bars.
So, it it verified that the sway bars are thinner on the PD (pre- or post april)?

 

[3mp_kwh]

I suspect Tesla used the large front bar to improve turn in on the P+. The PD uses the front drive to pull the front into and through corners so the big bar is not needed.

+1 Also consider most existing P85 and P85+ aren't using the newer ball-jointed links, which will favor impressions of turn-in on the later models. Friendly reminder, Lola. How did you make out with those calipers? It might confirm the 28mm / 22mm early SAS P85D bar diameters, that Sorka found. I'll be at an event this month, where I'm sure we can poke around and observe a few more specs. Once again, mine are 24mm front / 20mm rear, March coil P85D. Yet to get any confirmation of other's specs (85D, P85+..).

Particularly for folks testing the early, and receiving the later P85Ds, an option may be to work with Tesla and have the dampers sent back to Bilstein, to be valved back to conforming to what you originally bought. I believe Poway, CA, can do this and they obviously would have the damper specs to conform to the old part number. They won't modify an OE part, but the argument here would be that original OE is specifically what you are asking for. Then, you're set with a retorfit of the 28mm / 22mm bars (probably much easier than getting those dampers out). What I don't know is if those funky air springs are set by the car's software, or sealed at manufacture?

I'd be willing/interested in getting together an early SAS/late SAS/coil P85(90)D comparo. PM?

So, it it verified that the sway bars are thinner on the PD (pre- or post april)?

See above. Yes, from what we know so far.

 

[AWDtsla]

Oh I see exactly what you mean now with head snatch, and I agree that it is more pronounced on the P+ than the other Tesla line-up. However I do like the sportier ride and I don´t mind the stiffer sway bars.
So, it it verified that the sway bars are thinner on the PD (pre- or post april)?

I will never do upgraded sway bars again. Increasing the size of a sway bar past a nominal point only decreases lateral grip. This is why upgrading the rear sway bar changes of the balance of the car to oversteer, you're *losing* grip in the rear. Also, as mentioned already, over bad roads you get the head snatch. If Tesla were able to reduce the size of them without negatively changing the balance of the car, that's a good thing.

 

[sorka]

Adding the data I have for the P85+ loaner I currently.

Model	Front mm	Rear mm
P85+	22.72	19.48
P85D pre April Air	28	22
P85D Pre April Coil	24	20

I thought we had more data than that, but I don't see any measurements in this thread for Air/Coil post April P85D builds.

Clearly the P85D pre-april air has a huge jump in the front sway bar. My P85D's front sway bars is more than 6mm larger than the P85+ I have now. This is more than enough to explain why my car wants to jump off of little tiny bumps and skid to the side when going around a corner while the P85+ wheels are individually track over little bumps.

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What exactly do you mean by "head snatch"?

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So, is your PD pre- or post-april? Do you mean your PD is softer and sways more than P85+?

Pre April Air.

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Increasing the size of a sway bar past a nominal point only decreases lateral grip.

Precisely. Unless the road is really smooth and I already know there are no bumps, I have to be a lot more careful about the maximum cornering speed in my P85D compared to both P85+ loaners I've had.

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Can someone with air and someone with coil please go out and measure their sway bar diameters. The front is easy. Just turn the wheels all the way to the left or right and you can reach in there in front of the wheel. The rear is harder and easier if you back your car up on service ramps.

If you don't have a caliper, then use a zip tie and tie it down around the bar. Then cut it and measure the length in mm. Then divide by 3.14 to get the diameter.

 

[Niclas]

From Sorkas data, it seems sway bars are thicker on P85D pre april than P+. That would result in more head snatch on PDs? Doesn't make sense.

 

[sorka]

Small correction. I said over 6mm. Apparently I can't add. Meant over 5mm. Still a massive difference in torsion stiffness. It's nowhere near linear as diameter increases.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic, but not sure where else to ask this... For those of us with P85s who would like to get our handling closer to the P85+, is there anything we can do short of paying Tesla the exorbitant price for a + retrofit? I'm not a technical car person and have never so much as done my own oil change in my previous ICE cars, so looking for a non-DIY solution.

 

[3mp_kwh]

Small correction. I said over 6mm. Apparently I can't add. Meant over 5mm. Still a massive difference in torsion stiffness. It's nowhere near linear as diameter increases.

Torsion bars can sometimes be hollow, reducing the spring rate of the "twist". But I've never heard of hollow sway bars, and agree 5-6 extra mm implies something really, really stiff.