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Performance of P85D with Ludicrous upgrade review

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I know that a battery sitting around very hot for very long is bad, just as a battery charged to 100% sitting around for a long time is bad.

But ignoring that for a moment, and getting back to your question, is it possible that whatever degradation effects may exist could be impacted by the combination of both heat and the battery being discharged? In other words even though a hot battery sitting around is bad, is it possible that a slightly less hot battery actually discharging at a high rate of discharge is worse for the degradation aspect? If so, even if the battery gets hotter during supercharging, the max battery power option could be worse from a degradation standpoint.

If your theory is correct, then I suppose max battery power could be used for heating the battery on shore power during the winter (to improve range) without damaging it as long as you don't use ludicrous acceleration once you start driving.
 
Anyone remember reading anything from Tesla that indicated that Max Battery Power should not be used all the time, and that the downside to doing so was some battery degradation? If so, do you remember where?

I remember, Andy. But it was not in a thread on the "driving dynamics" subforum. I'll try to find it later tonight. As you, not sure however if it was just the poster guessing or based on info given at a SeC.
 
If your theory is correct, then I suppose max battery power could be used for heating the battery on shore power during the winter (to improve range) without damaging it as long as you don't use ludicrous acceleration once you start driving.

Professor Dahn was pretty clear that simply storing a battery at higher temperature decreases shelf life.


But if max battery brings the battery to an optimal temperature and if that temperature is *less* than the temperature of a supercharger charging session, then it could be that max battery cools the battery in this case rather than warms it up to bring it down to the optimal temperature. My point is we don't really know for sure unless someone superchargers and then enables max battery and then determines what the heaeting or cooling system is doing afterwards.

Another clue might be to enable max battery while supercharging. Is the charge rate the expected for the current SOC? Is it less? is it normal at first but then decreases to less than expected later on? Or is it even more than expected all the way through in an attempt to warm up the battery to even more than it normally would without max battery?
 
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Professor Dahn was pretty clear that simply storing a battery at higher temperature decreases shelf life.
Thank you very much for the video! Being a nerd, I watched the whole hour-long discussion of undesirable parasitic reactions in electrolytes and loved it. I guess the conclusion it that high temps (as you say) and charging to high SOC (as we all know) is bad, and the time the battery spends in these bad conditions is more important than the number of charge-discharge cycles. He didn't say it explicitly, but it sounded like it's better to let the SOC run down over a few days driving and then recharge, than to keep the car topped up nightly, since that would keep average SOC lower over time, and perhaps battery temp lower over time. However, that seems to go against recommendations I have heard, and perhaps it would be bad for the life of the car's low-voltage battery. The broader conclusion is that battery chemistry is a black art, particularly as regards giving the cells a long useful life. For example, the 90 cells may have different electrolyte additives than the 85 cells, which may give the two different durabilities under various different conditions. There is no way for outsiders to know or even make an educated guess about most of the relevant questions unless the experts at the company who know the characteristics of their particular batteries disclose the answer.
 
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There is no way for outsiders to know or even make an educated guess about most of the relevant questions unless the experts at the company who know the characteristics of their particular batteries disclose the answer.

Even for the experts it is very difficult to know unless they stress test the cells for years in a row. I am so glad Tesla was able to bring the whole research team of Prof. Jeff Dahn on board starting June 2016. They have a 5 year exclusive contract: Charging onward: Dahn’s next move marks first Canadian university collaboration with Tesla Motors - Dal News - Dalhousie University
 
I guess the conclusion it that high temps (as you say) and charging to high SOC (as we all know) is bad, and the time the battery spends in these bad conditions is more important than the number of charge-discharge cycles. He didn't say it explicitly, but it sounded like it's better to let the SOC run down over a few days driving and then recharge, than to keep the car topped up nightly, since that would keep average SOC lower over time, and perhaps battery temp lower over time.

I started a thread with my data to figure out what SoC range my battery's mostly spends in - please feel free to post there with recommendations:

State of Charge Data over Time: what SoC is your battery mostly sitting at?
 
Anyone remember reading anything from Tesla that indicated that Max Battery Power should not be used all the time, and that the downside to doing so was some battery degradation? If so, do you remember where?

Andy, it took a day extra because it was so much work to go through all those posts since Pete90D got his P90D. The conclusion is that several have stated that heat has a known negative impact on cell life but Tesla has never given any info, official or non-official, on a potential link between the Max Battery setting and battery degradation. The below snapshot is a clear and short summary of what we know (or don't know) at this point in time:

Degradation if using Max Battery Power setting.jpg
 
I think it was in a letter from Elon's executive office.
Email Elon | P85D Owners Missing Performance

"occasionally pressing max performance will not have a noticeable negative effect on battery life"

Thanks for the link. I think the sentences that came just before and just after the one quoted above also important:

Normally, the battery is optimizing for range and long life, so 0 to 100 kmh acceleration can be affected by 0.2 seconds or more if too cold, too hot or at the wrong charge state. Occasionally pressing max performance will not have a noticeable negative effect on battery life, but it should not stay there all the time. It is important to note that being at 100% state of charge does not deliver the best acceleration -- lowest impedance is at ~90% SoC.
 
Thanks, jpet, for spending all the time searching.

And thanks hly, for that reference in Musk's letter. I definitely had read that when it was posted some where on this site. I imagine that when I read that, combined with what knowledgeable people here had been saying, it all made sense, and in my head I then combined it all as being "the word from Tesla." It does sound like the original conclusion is warranted, and that the information did, at least in part, come from Tesla.
 
Thanks to everyone providing performance data following the ludicrous upgrade.

Are there any updates for P85D vs. P85D vs. P90D comparisons from thimel, yo mama, or MarcG or someone else that I missed?

I am still sitting on the fence and would appreciate any information you may be able to provide.
My SC claims that the upgrade window closes by the end of December!
 
Apart from the very good quality comparison data, the only other really important element for me is if the P90DL's 10.9 second 1/4 mile time is real or just a MotorTrend ICE correction fabrication.

If it is real, that .5 seconds in the 1/4 is worth me disposing of my P85D and buying a P90DL.
If it is not, the L upgrade gets you to within spitting distance of the P90DL and thus would be the preferred path for me.

I'm just not sure how we will learn the truth. If it were simply an OTA update to bring the current P90DL field up to MT's findings then I would have thought we would have seen it by now. I'm beginning to think the 10.9 is on the order of the "price includes time saved by not pumping gas" or "691 combined motor horsepower" tricks. It would be a real shame if it is.
 
My SC claims that the upgrade window closes by the end of December!

If this turns out to be true, it would be a whole new definition of Tesla-time.

Musk made the announcement in which he said the window would be six months on July 17, 2015. There was no real information about the upgrades available for quite some time after that, and upgrades only started being performed a couple of weeks ago, so some might argue the six month clock should start ticking much later. But even ignoring all of that, six months from July 17 is January 16, 2016. There is no conceivable way the window should close in December, 2015.
 
Thanks to everyone providing performance data following the ludicrous upgrade.

Are there any updates for P85D vs. P85D vs. P90D comparisons from thimel, yo mama, or MarcG or someone else that I missed?

I am still sitting on the fence and would appreciate any information you may be able to provide.
My SC claims that the upgrade window closes by the end of December!

We're trying to get together at the end this week or early weekend but respective schedules are proving difficult. I'd like to get a V-box to compare P85D vs. P85D vs. P90D as apples-to-apples as possible!
 
Apart from the very good quality comparison data, the only other really important element for me is if the P90DL's 10.9 second 1/4 mile time is real or just a MotorTrend ICE correction fabrication.

If there indeed were an OTA upgrade, what are the barriers for the P85DL to enjoy some improvement as well?

- - - Updated - - -

There is no conceivable way the window should close in December, 2015.

That's exactly what I thought, but was quoted this date several times. :confused:

- - - Updated - - -

We're trying to get together at the end this week or early weekend but respective schedules are proving difficult. I'd like to get a V-box to compare P85D vs. P85D vs. P90D as apples-to-apples as possible!

Thank you very much! I really appreciate your efforts!
 
If there indeed were an OTA upgrade, what are the barriers for the P85DL to enjoy some improvement as well?
Tesla is not obligated to update performance for P85DL beyond what has been advertised and measured so far (essentially 0.2 better in 0-60 and 0.2 better in 1/4 mile). It can either be from hardware differences between 90kWh and 85kWh battery or an artificial differentiation between P85DL and P90DL (to maintain a value gap).

There is a conspiracy theory that Tesla is limiting the P90DL right now in order to get people to commit to the P85DL (such that performance matches in the initial comparisons as it does now) and then after all the P85DL orders have been filled, Tesla will unlock the full performance for P90DL.
 
and an OTA update was my wishful speculation when Tesla announced the MotorTrend numbers. My thoughts were that Tesla had verified higher consumption then were using MotorTrend to validate the results while pushing out an updated firmware to all P90DL owners. Too much time has passed for that now and Tesla has been silent on the issue even though it is patently obvious that there is an issue. This makes me really think the OTA update was fantasy thinking.
 
@stopcrazypp: Funny! I consciously omitted mentioning the, as you call it, "conspiracy theory".

My question was more directed towards finding out whether an increase of 5 kW in battery capacity or a change in battery chemistry was required to get closer to the 11 second mark, or whether Tesla would be able to give everyone a holiday gift (P85DL as well as P90DL), if they so chose.
 
We're trying to get together at the end this week or early weekend but respective schedules are proving difficult. I'd like to get a V-box to compare P85D vs. P85D vs. P90D as apples-to-apples as possible!

This is great. I would prefer to have max battery off for all tests, since I really don't think realistically anyone is actually going to use it in the real-world outside of track runs given the huge amount of time it takes to prep.

Incidentally, I have a non-upgraded P85D with pano roof and standard 19s and live in San Mateo if you happen to find yourselves in need of a P85D to test against...