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Petition Tesla to make the Model 3 Performance 0-60 <3s

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Sorry to be late to the party but here is a reminder for anyone new joining this thread, Tesla cars have a couple primary and secondary performance limiting mechanisms.

The primary limits in order from launch are: max torque, max power, and the motor limits at power probably governed by Back EMF. And to a small extent unsprung wheel weight. The most obvious secondary limits include tire traction, inverter and battery cooling. And if you consider increasing the battery power then maybe the inverter limits become a limit as well.

The motors have their own max torque limits but the car also has a max torque setting. That creates the linear acceleration off the line and makes almost all the 0-30 difference. When Tesla uncorked the S75D they emphasized the battery power limit increase but really, the noticeable change came from max torque. What this means for the 3 is that the tires won't make much difference in performance until the torque is increase because the car isn't traction limited.

You can see what the theoretical power over velocity looks like in the dotted lines here and actual power here for the S. Since Tesla disabled the APIs from the 3 from which we pulled that data, we are waiting until the CANBus reverse engineering settles to have similar graphs for the 3. The most interesting line is probably the gray line example where you can see where that torque limit decreases initial power output and that the max power limit means that the motor limits are never reached. In case anyone is wondering, having a low enough state of charge doesn't affect the initial torque limited power output but instead creates a similar power cap like that gray line as well a shift down of the higher velocity motor "Back EMF" limits.
 
Sorry to be late to the party but here is a reminder for anyone new joining this thread, Tesla cars have a couple primary and secondary performance limiting mechanisms.

The primary limits in order from launch are: max torque, max power, and the motor limits at power probably governed by Back EMF. And to a small extent unsprung wheel weight. The most obvious secondary limits include tire traction, inverter and battery cooling. And if you consider increasing the battery power then maybe the inverter limits become a limit as well.

The motors have their own max torque limits but the car also has a max torque setting. That creates the linear acceleration off the line and makes almost all the 0-30 difference. When Tesla uncorked the S75D they emphasized the battery power limit increase but really, the noticeable change came from max torque. What this means for the 3 is that the tires won't make much difference in performance until the torque is increase because the car isn't traction limited.

You can see what the theoretical power over velocity looks like in the dotted lines here and actual power here for the S. Since Tesla disabled the APIs from the 3 from which we pulled that data, we are waiting until the CANBus reverse engineering settles to have similar graphs for the 3. The most interesting line is probably the gray line example where you can see where that torque limit decreases initial power output and that the max power limit means that the motor limits are never reached. In case anyone is wondering, having a low enough state of charge doesn't affect the initial torque limited power output but instead creates a similar power cap like that gray line as well a shift down of the higher velocity motor "Back EMF" limits.
So I tested this today while I was sitting at 55% and while the car may not tell you it’s holding back it’s readily apparent that the draw is what holds the motors output back at this point..

I have every confidence that a pack upgrade in the 100kWh range would likely put the P3D into 2.5s territory in the top 25% of the charge and taper down to present level below that.
 
So I tested this today while I was sitting at 55% and while the car may not tell you it’s holding back it’s readily apparent that the draw is what holds the motors output back at this point..

I have every confidence that a pack upgrade in the 100kWh range would likely put the P3D into 2.5s territory in the top 25% of the charge and taper down to present level below that.
0-60 is mostly about torque. The car doesn't even reach max power until 40mph or so. Any increase in peak power would only improve acceleration from 40-60mph.
The approximate splits right now are
0-20 1s
20-40 1s
40-60 1.2s
So you'd get 0.2s if you could maintain the same torque 40-60.
 
Think of it as a mix of chill mode and sport.

You should read @Krash ‘s post again.

A bigger battery would allow higher maximum power output down to a lower SoC, but if the weight increases the vehicle would likely end up slower. Add 200-300 pounds and that pig will not fly.

It’s likely that the limitation of the vehicle right now is the motor max current (torque), not the battery. If it weren’t, the car could really launch, even with the battery it has now - since it is nowhere near the battery power limit when you are below 30mph (or whatever), at a reasonable stage of charge. But it would taper torque sooner because peak HP would be reached sooner...
 
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You should read @Krash’s post again.

A bigger battery would allow higher maximum power output down to a lower SoC, but if the weight increases the vehicle would likely end up slower. Add 200-300 pounds and that pig will not fly.

It’s likely that the limitation of the vehicle right now is the motor max current (torque), not the battery. If it weren’t, the car could really launch, even with the battery it has now - since it is nowhere near the battery power limit when you are below 30mph (or whatever), at a reasonable stage of charge. But it would taper torque sooner because peak HP would be reached sooner...
If higher density is achieved we may not need to add more weight to get those extra kWh’s. On the inverse though: If we could get the 75-80kWh pack down to the SR+ ~55kWh weight (or less?) how much faster could we go at same power levels?
 
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The primary limits in order from launch are: max torque, max power, and the motor limits at power probably governed by Back EMF.

It’s likely that the limitation of the vehicle right now is the motor max current (torque), not the battery.

This is mostly correct. The limit is the torque that the motors can produce. But the primary thing stopping them from increasing torque further is not battery current, nor is it mechanical limits like gear or axle stress. The limitation here is magnetic flux density inside the motor.

gif.latex

For an induction motor, torque produced in the motor (T) is directly proportional to the magnetic flux density in the stator-rotor air gap (B), the rotor current (Ir), and the rotor phase angle (theta). The magnetic flux density is proportional to the stator current, so long as the core material that the motor is made of is not driven into magnetic saturation.

gif.latex

Basically, for a given cross-sectional area of magnetically permeable material, there is a maximum amount of magnetic flux (therefore a maximum flux density) that can be produced in that material. For the stator windings, we use the inverter to send current through them, that creates a magnetizing force (H, in amp-turns or Webers) which then causes a magnetic flux (B, in Teslas) in that cross-sectional area (A). We can increase H and therefore increase B, up to a certain point where the material cannot carry any more magnetic flux. This point is refered to as "saturation", where an increase in H no longer causes an increase in B. For highly permeable silicon steel, the maximum flux density is about 1.6-1.8 Teslas.

Here are the magnetization curves for 9 different materials. Material 2 (silicon steel) is most common. You can see that as H increases, you get a sharp rise in B until about 1.5 Teslas, then the curve flattens out. You want to operate in the H range of 0-20 amp-turns/in.

400px-Magnetization_curves.svg.png

If you want more total magnetic flux (therefore more torque) and you're close to saturation, then you can't get it by increasing current. You have to increase the area, which means a bigger motor.

Take a look at the two different sized induction motors in the pre-Raven performance Model S. You can (briefly) use the inverter to send just as much current through the small front motor as you send through the large back motor, but that front motor won't produce the torque that the back one will. That's because you're driving the front motor into magnetic saturation, so you're not increasing the magnetic flux. The rear motor is not near saturation, so the total flux you can create in the air gap is a lot more, that means a lot more torque.

The PMSR motor works differently and uses different equations than the induction motor, but the principal is the same. For the motor's given size, there is a maximum torque it can produce before you can no longer increase the magnetic flux density. At that point, to get more torque you simply have to increase the motor dimensions so that you have more cross sectional area for the magnetic flux to circulate in.
 
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...The limitation here is magnetic flux density inside the motor....At that point, to get more torque you simply have to increase the motor dimensions so that you have more cross sectional area for the magnetic flux to circulate in.
I love it when the smart folks show up. SomeJoe, I assume that it is like a cross sectional volume, meaning that you could take two motors or simply one motor made longer, without making it bigger in diameter.
 
I love it when the smart folks show up. SomeJoe, I assume that it is like a cross sectional volume, meaning that you could take two motors or simply one motor made longer, without making it bigger in diameter.

Correct, you can increase the flux path area by increasing motor dimensions in length, diameter, or both. You can associate the magnetic flux path area with the winding dimensions. Anything you can do to get bigger loops of wire is the same mechanism that can increase the flux path area.
 
It would be cool if they did, but I'm not counting on it.

I do think the Performance trim needs a little more value right now, even if it doesn't come in the form of a faster 0-60. I honestly don't think you're getting $6k more car versus the AWD trim w/ speed boost. That's $6k after the $2k speed boost upgrade on the AWD, of course.

That said, I'd probably do it again if I had the choice. The 2020 P3D+ with the black rims is exactly what I wanted straight from the factory. I really don't like having to deal with aftermarket nonsense, so there ya go. I'm part of the problem :D
 
It would be cool if they did, but I'm not counting on it.

I do think the Performance trim needs a little more value right now, even if it doesn't come in the form of a faster 0-60. I honestly don't think you're getting $6k more car versus the AWD trim w/ speed boost. That's $6k after the $2k speed boost upgrade on the AWD, of course.

That said, I'd probably do it again if I had the choice. The 2020 P3D+ with the black rims is exactly what I wanted straight from the factory. I really don't like having to deal with aftermarket nonsense, so there ya go. I'm part of the problem :D

Yep, me too, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. But then again I don't actually see a problem. I do think you're getting $6k more car value.